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After Angel went 'bad' why wasn't Cordelia Boss?

Discussion in 'Season 2' started by Xin Rong, Jul 26, 2014.

  1. Xin Rong

    Xin Rong Killed by Dissertation

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    I don't understand why when Angel had his epiphany Wesley became boss. In my view, it should have been Cordy, she'd worked there longer; she basically founded and organised the original business; she then founded and organised it's non-angel counterpart, but then for some innane reason when Angel rejoins Wesley becomes boss.

    Why?

    Cordy would have been a better 'boss', especially at this point in the narrative where Wesley had been seen to fail at pretty much everything other than being a subordinate.

    In the first episode with the newly rejoined team, Cordy tells Harmony she mostly manages the office, which is true, so again why Wesley as boss?
     
  2. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    If its 'Angel Investigations' I guess the boss should have some Investigative ability, which Wesley has.
    Wesley was a Watcher, and a pretty good one in the sense that he seemed very good at the research angle- sifting through vast amounts of infomation, like a detective does. (Just not so much with...uh, everything else- interacting with slayers, too heavy-handed, stuffy, rules bound, etc.)

    I'm not sure in S2 that Wesley ever acted like ' I'm the boss' to either Cordelia or Gunn. it was very much a three-way partnership, with all of them relying on each other. In fact Wesley is very suppotive of Cordelia regarding her visions/lack of a social life- they become much closer.

    I guess after Angel comes back Cordelia lets Wesley be the boss so that he's the one that 'deals with'/interacts Angel, so she doesn't have to. (She remains angry at Angel the longest out of all of them)

    Plus there's the fact that being the boss requires doing a lot more work, Cordelia is still a work in progress in S2, she's accepted her role as 'helping the helpless' but is still conflicted about what she's having to give up. So, with all that in mind, maybe Cordelia just doesn't want to be the boss bad enough.

    It's not like she can't tell Wesley to go hang if he gets too high handed, he can't fire her, she's vision-girl. :)
     
    chasesummers: Perfect :P
  3. Xin Rong

    Xin Rong Killed by Dissertation

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    Wesley was sacked as a watcher, and is the worst watcher we see on either show.

    Yes. before angel rejoins it is a three way partnership, but then for some reason when Angel returns he's boss.

    Cordelia is the first to forgive Angel, it's Wesley who remains angriest the longest, so you're way off base there.

    Cordy might not fight for the job, but she should have had it, Wesley sucks as the boss, no one respects his authority, he just usurps that role without anyone asking him to take it. In fact, he makes the role a boss role moreso than Angel does, he literally has a closed door policy as a boss.

    There's not one character who would obey his leadership unless they agreed with it, Gunn/Angel/Cordy show repeatedly that he is a subparr leader
     
    Robb Stark: Actually that would be Gwen Post
  4. janas

    janas Bangel in the soul

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    Maybe because they were going planning the Wesley's ascent before his fall into hell, in the next season. Just like they did with Cordy between the third and fourth season.
     
  5. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    I always thought the other two chose him for some reason - maybe his greater knowledge. It's not like anyone from outside imposed this - not like a captain turning over the bridge. (Why was Uhura never given the bridge!!)
     
  6. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Uh, no. Gwen Post is the worst Watcher we see on the show. ;)

    Wesley is a 'perfect' example as what a Watcher should be, but Buffy and Faith are hardly typical slayers now are they? :)

    Angel asks to work for the three of them, and they all agree. Wesley doesn't usurp anybody. And while Gunn and Wesley are able to be civil and work along side Angel, Cordelia spends almost all of 'Dishormony' really pissed and cold towards Angel, so in what way am I 'way off base'?

    The Pylea trilogy is all about Wesley struggling to believe in himself and learning how to lead, Gunn is happy to follow Wesley (because maybe he admires Wesley's increasing bravery, his intellect perhaps?), Wesley doesn't ever boss him around, but he does make hard choices.

    I don't know where you're getting the whole 'Wesley sucks as boss' thing. He inproves over the courseof S2 (Where I think your question was aimed) and his authority is well established in S3 ('That Old Gang Of Mine') - he's quite competent, otherwise why would Cordelia or Angel or Gunn ever follow him?


    And for the record Angel could be much more of a hardass boss when he wanted to be, not giving his team the full information to investigate ('AYNOHTEB'), rudely bossing them around and going it alone when it suited him.

    Buffy often gets accused of arrogance in her leadership style, but Angel never does- even though Angel can be far more confrontational/high-handed in his leadership style. Curious that. :confused:
     
    Xin Rong: Gwen wasn't a watcher when we saw her
    caitaintdead: Agree
    Spanish Flame likes this.
  7. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Actually, Uhuru did take command at least once, but it was in the animated series, not the original 3 Season show, so it's not a very well known fact.

    "On stardate 5483.7, while under the influence of the women of Taurus II, the male crewmembers of the Enterprise were incapacitated enough by the "siren's song" to nessecitate that Lieutenant Uhura assume command of the ship."

    Taken from:


    http://www.danhausertrek.com/AnimatedSeries/Uhura.html

    As for why Cordy didn't take charge during Angel's absence, maybe she just plain didn't want to. She pretty well knew that if Wes started to screw up, she would be able to help him see the error of his ways.

    To go back to the "Star Trek" analogy, even though military protocol did, at times, require Spock to take command of the "Enterprise." he was never actually comfortable in that position. He said on several occasions that he did not want command. As I saw it, both Spock and Cordy were most comfortable in an advisory position than they would be in command. It's a well known fact in the Navy, despite what is depicted in movies and on TV, that the Executive Officer is the person who runs the Captain's yacht, ant that's how I always saw Cordy, as Angel's XO. Anybody can drive the boat. The real talent and greatest responsibility lies in seeing that it stays afloat, and that was Cordy's job at Angel Investigations.
     
  8. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    I am a purist - there is no ST except TOS (and the reboot).

    And I completely agree about everything else! :)
     
  9. Xin Rong

    Xin Rong Killed by Dissertation

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    Cordelia forgives Angel at the end of Disharmony, whilst Wesley is still angry at him, which is made evident by how pissed off he is that Cordy forgives me: he obviously wanted Angel to suffer a little longer.

    How does Wesley improve as a boss? He's purely a figurehead, it's still Angel's show at the end of the day. Wesley really annoys me as 'boss' because he doesn't promote the sense of team, he puts himself above everyone else and talks down to them as subordinates, when the only reason he seems to be in that position is that noone else wanted the job?

    In season 3 we then seem him abuse his supposed 'power' as boss by trying to separate Fred and Gunn - and then as we move through the season then we see how great his decision making ability is.

    On a sidenote, does anyone else ever notice that the 'significant' event that Wesley is ascribed by Skip in season 4 was sleeping with Lilah, whilst everyone elses had to do with their origiins, to me this shows how irrelevant he was up until that point.

    Yes Angel might have ooccasionally pulled the boss card and been arrogant but it's his mission at the end of the day, so he gets to take the lead, whereas Wesley has no reason to be arrogant, he's subpar at everything.

    Listening to Wesley try and show off about his promotion to his Dad makes me shake with disgust, and not sympathy as most others seem to do - I will never understand the Wesley love that most people seem to have - in my view he is a tool and will always be a tool, regardless of how many guns he has or how much stubble he grows.
     
    Ethan Reigns: Thank you! Someone else finally sees Wesley the way I do.
  10. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya

    You wanna give me some examples here?

    Where is Wesley angry at Angel after 'Disharmony?' In any significant way? The only person who still has ambiguous feelings towards Angel is Gunn, not Wesley (see 'That Old Gang of Mine')

    In S3, Wesley does use his authority over Gunn and Fred a little bit, but he's hardly embittered, or truly abusive with hi power- he wants them to try and remain professional, which is a reasonable request for any boss to make. He really just remains coolly aloof from them both, becoming more distant. It's a fault, but an understandable one in my view.

    Also in S3 Wesley does make an error in judgement, absolutely. but it has nothing to do with his being the boss, more to do with his being a former Watcher. His training as a Watcher is to do what is nessesary.
    But he still fouls up and doesn't just anybody else to make a judgement call.

    Giles has a similar trait which shows in his protectiveness towards Buffy.

    In 'Belonging' Wesley isn't 'boasting' to his father about being made leader of there group. Listen to his tone, he rings up his Father to give him some good news, mildly saying 'I've been made leader of our new group', clearly wanting some show of approval from the person who's opinion he still craves. Then his father destroys him over the phone. I can't see how anybody can see this as 'disgusting'. :confused:

    I don't care if its Angel's show, if Buffy gets called our for it (and she does, often) then Angel should too. Just because you're name in on the show doesn't mean you get to act however you want.

    To be honest a lot of this is really just becoming a 'I hate Wesley in every conceivable way, no matter what he does' rant, especially towards the end there. ;)

    Basically Wesley is made the boss, nominally speaking, until Angel takes back the reins of the business when his son is born. ('Provider')
     
    bespangeled: definitely a rant!
  11. Xin Rong

    Xin Rong Killed by Dissertation

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    By seeking some kind of approval from his father, he is suggesting that he has achieved something, whichhe hasn't: he is purely leader by default and he does not excel at that role: his position is constantly undermined by almost every character. He also did absolutely nothing to earn that position, prior to this point he hadn't shown any leadership potential, IMO, especially if we go as far back as Buffy.

    When does Wesley show himself to be this great boss that you seem to be suggesting he is, all he seems to do is point out that he's in charge a lot, I'm suprised he doesn't walk around with a badge saying 'I'm the Boss' on it.

    I didn't say Angel shouldn't be called out on his arrogance or his over assertion of his authority, I just meant that comparatively speaking he has more reason for that kind of behaviour than Wesley does, because ultimately it's his, and Cordy's mission: without them their is no business for Wesley to nominally in charge of.

    ---------- Post added at 05:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 PM ----------

    Cordy forgave him whilst Wesley was still angry at him, so she didn't hold a grudge longer, nd Gunn has always had ambigious feelings towards Gunn. I'm rewatching season 2 now, so when I have more examples then I'll post them, but to my memory I'm sure Wesley, and Gunn, consistently reference their anger at Angel's betrayal after Cordy has gotten over it.
     
  12. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    The others gave him the leadership role, by definition then he's earned it.They felt, for whatever reason, that he was in the best position to lead them/run the business. that's an acheivement worth telling his parents about.

    Wesley is intelligent, knowledgable about demon species, cults and magical artefacts- more so than eithier Gunn, Cordy or even Angel (handy in their chosen line of work), can read certain people pretty well ('Untouched', 'Guise will be Guys'), gets better at handling himself in a fight all through S2.
    Agreed, he had to grow into a leadership role, he had untapped potential that his father obviously squashed, but Angel himself brings out in him. Wesley is self-conscious/underconfident- this is the opposite of the arrogance you accuse him of.

    I never said that Wesley was the greatest boss ever, just not as awful and vile as you claim. He's a good second-in-command to Angel, who also has leadership skills.
    Again, examples of Wesley's supposed arrogance would be nice- I've got a pretty good memory for getting annoyed at arrogant characters (such as Spike) and can't remember Wes ever acting in such a way.
    In could be argued that he got arrogant in S4- but to me he just came across as self-assured, measured and confident in himself, possibly because he was running his own gang by then (although they, like Gunn's gang, seemed to go their seperate ways fairly quickly.)

    Angel left the rest of them in S2 for a prolonged period on a personal vendetta, he lost the mission where as Cordy, Wes and Gunn didn't.
    Wesley has just as much claim to the whole thing being 'his mission' as Angel does- after all he never indulged in any personal revenge crap.
     
  13. Xin Rong

    Xin Rong Killed by Dissertation

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    No he doesn't have a claim to it being his mission, the fight against evil yes, but this particular fight is all Angels and Cordelia's with Wesley and others being allowed to join in, just as Buffy is the slayer, it's her destiny, the scoobs generally conform to her leadership because their fiight against evil revolves around her cause.

    Arrogance: Disharmony, when he treats Angel as the help, which is with good reason but still.

    The way he talks to Gunn about his relationship with Fred, he assumes because he is 'boss' that he has the right to dictate to other people how they should live their lives, who they can be with etc.

    In Pylea, when Wesley leads the revolution: he sends people to their death and again assumes leadership, he doesn't have the expertise to lead this kind of assault or knowledge of the world/environment/enemy and yet he decides to lead the assault... even Gunn has more experience in this regards, yes Gunn didn't step up in Pylea, but part of being a good leader is recognising the skills of your team, Wesley knew Gunn had more experience in this regards, but yet formulates a plan without asking his advice, and then squashes his objections with feeble 'the needs of the many' type argument.

    Cordy is Angel's second in command. Wesley contributes very little in terms of leadership, everyone knows what they're doing, they don't need the level of intervention or active management that Wesley's managerial method exhibits, and on many occasions Wesley's instructions are just repetitions of other characters ideas, but under Wesley's leadership he has to say yes first.

    The Wesley as boss scenario annoys me mostly because he truly acts like an average office boss on a power trip, he could have been styled on David Brent.

    I don't think Wes is awful or vile, I just think he is a character who has massive flaws, that he never overcomes, he is always trying and failing to be more than he is, he seems to be constantly denying his true self and trying to be seen as bigger and better than he actually his, rather than being bigger and better. I genuinely feel sorry for him: people talk about his character development, but I don't think Wesley has any significant growth until Fred dies, then he stops pretending and becomes someone, an unstable someone but not someone trying to be something else.

    I'm still not seeing an argument that puts Wesley in the leadership role, he just seems to have stepped into it without being asked too... Yes he had watcher training and knowledge of demons, but he was obviouslly an abysmal watcher and his demon knowledge is useful but not something that means he should be a leader. Anya probably has more knowledge than anyone in the core groups of either show, due to her age, but no one would advocate her being the leader, at least I don't think they would.

    ---------- Post added at 09:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:30 PM ----------

    Robb Stark agrees: Actually that would be Gwen Post

    Gwen wasn't a watcher when saw her, she was a former watcher, she might have been great at her job before going evil :)

    ---------- Post added at 11:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:32 PM ----------

    Also, as early as 'Over the Rainbow' Angel becomes leader again and Wesley returns to his role, which he is great at, but only when they are alone... a few episodes later, in Pylea Gunn and Cordy ignore the magnamanus edicts of their 'boss'
     
  14. Wesley Pryce

    Wesley Pryce Angel Investigations

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    Black Thorn
    Wesley is boss because of his watchers training,his intellect. A managerial position like that would require someone very responsible and intelligent,which Wesley had more than proven he was. I agree with Topher, Cordy wasn't quite yearning to be the boss yet. Also, Gunn and Cordy were very willing to follow Wesley,as they had come to deeply respect him. Also,Wesley acted extremely humble as their new appointed leader,so there's no reason to act as if he was a pushy prick or anything of that nature. He had progressed a lot by this point in season 2. SO They chose him because they trusted both his abilities as well as his commitment to mission. :)
     
  15. Robb Stark

    Robb Stark King in the North

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    Sineya
    I think this is projecting. What do you mean he's "trying and failing to be more than he is", or that he's "denying his true self"? Honestly...what does that even mean? Why should people accept limits placed on them? Why should people stop trying to be better? What kind of a thing is that to even say?
     
  16. Xin Rong

    Xin Rong Killed by Dissertation

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    Wesley is always playing a role, he's an esteemed watcher who's supposedly better trained thant Giles, he's a 'rogue demon hunter', 'the boss', gone 'dark'... these are all just roles that he tries to play: he's like a kid playing dress up.
     
  17. Kana

    Kana Soulless human

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    Why did Wesley become boss? Because he was the only other white male available? Just kidding.

    While I think it would have been nice to see why he was appointed, it seems that naturally emerging leaders, tend to...naturally emerge.

    After the seemingly unexplained decision, Wes did demonstrate himself to be a competent leader. His leadership qualities are apparent when he's not trying to impress people.

    The Pylea arc was a fantastic example of that.

    In subsequent seasons, in lieu of Angel, Wes tended to lead the group quite confidently. Even Angelus in Season 4 recognized that Wes seemed to have some kind subtle authority.

    If nothing else is usually the man with the plan.
     
  18. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    Why Wesley became boss? Sexism.

    Cordy is the bossy type. She's good at assigning tasks, keeping the business afloat, being pragmatic, etc. She also has the visions which make her an integral part of the group. Wesley may have the knowledge and be research guy, but that doesn't make him the leader. Wesley proves himself later on - after season 2 he is the most qualified person (other than Angel) to be the boss of A.I - however, at that point, when Angel fired his team, Cordelia was more reliable and Wesley was still the clumsy/awkward amateur watcher. Plus, Cordy was the one who founded A.I and who convinced Gunn and Wes to continue with the mission. Cordy being the blunt, bubbly person she was and a woman is probably why the writers made the serious, stuffy watcher the boss.
     
  19. caitaintdead

    caitaintdead caiters gonna cait

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    Black Thorn
    I love Cordelia and I have a lot in common with her. I'm bubbly and chatty and confident at work and I banter with the best of them. I spent a long time complaining that I was getting passed over for promotion. I finally got my promotion to manager and I hated it. My personality wasn't suited to it at all.

    I don't think Cordelia ever really wanted to be in charge. Even when she was Queen B in high school she complained about how lonely and difficult being on top was.

    Cordelia also didn't have any degrees that would be relevant to the role while Wesley had achieved a very specified degree in exactly what the job role required.

    Wesley does prove that he has the ability to take charge. In Redefinition when Cordy, Gunn and Wesley show up to the crime scene both Cordy and Gunn turn to Wesley as they do not know what to do. He reacts calmly and pragmatically and with his lead they are able to band together.

    I'm watching the second half of season 2 and I'll report back with anything else I spot in this regard.
     
  20. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    I think it was mostly down to Wesley's knowledge and experience. True Cordy had the Sunnydale experience and was growing into a strong team player but was still a little way off maturing fully. It was a bit of a toss up between her and Wes, but to me Wes seemed the logical choice. I agree that @thetopher though that it was a very fluid arrangement where often there was no clear leader. Its not like the scoobies where Buffy or Giles pretty much always called the shots.