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Angel and Buffy: The Age Difference?

Discussion in 'Sunnydale Cemetery' started by Wishing Oceans, Oct 27, 2009.

  1. Wishing Oceans

    Wishing Oceans I don't think, I know.

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    This topic is mostly for anti- bangel fans, so I'm sorry if I offend anyone. :) Anyway, something that I just realized the other day while watching Buffy is that when Buffy and Angel started going out, she was around fifteen years old. And Angel was about 200- something. Now, say that we judge this off of how old he was before he was a vampire, which would be 26. To be quite frank, Angel is a teeny bit of a pedophile. :D And nowadays, he could probably get arrested, because it's illegal to date and have sexual interactions with a minor. Which he did. And well, I happen to find that a little creepy. Or rather a lot creepy. Also, Dawn in season seven was the same age as Buffy when she started dating Angel, someone almost twice her age. Try to imagine Dawn in Buffy's place, doing all the things Buffy did. It's freaky and weird, right? :D I'm just glad that she and Spike didn't start their relationship until she was 20, and Spike didn't love her 'til she was 19. Even RILEY had a more appropriate age wise relationship with Buffy. :) So anyway, sorry if this topic had already been made. :)

    Thoughts? Was I the last one to notice this? Any arguments? [Bangel fans, that one's for you :D]
     
  2. Flannen

    Flannen Flannix

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    I'm not going to particularly argue with the fact, cos it's a fact but its nothing something I have a problem with. It's weird and creepy if you want to see it that way, but seeing as we're more directed to see Angel as a 200 year old vampire as opposed to a 20 something human turned vampire it's not really something that bothers me. At the end of the day, that's not what I would actually use the term 'paedophile' to describe myself anyway. Angel was not a sexual predator, not like a 'paedophile' is.

    And I really don't think the argument that Spike didn't love her til twenties suffices as an argument. A lot of people say that Spike has had an 'attraction' to Buffy since he first joined the series in season two, when Buffy was seventeen. I see things like 'look how he looks at her dancing in the Bronze.' Ok then, I will. Oh look, a twenty something human-turned-vampire looking at a seventeen year old, in an extremely sexual way! Need I say more? At least with Angel it was about love at that time. But with Spike? That's pure, sexual and 'innappropriate' lust...;)

    So if Angel is, so is Spike.
     
  3. PrincessBuffy16

    PrincessBuffy16 Credit Card Slayer

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    I think the title is disgusting. And I'm not going even to start this one all over again, I said my opinion on this. When she started dating him she was 16, he was 200, but she had to act like an adult. And for the law he doesn't exist, because he is a VAMPIRE! And I think William was older, he was showed much older then Liam, but we never really find out, so for me that is disgusting. Having sex with old vampire who you don't love. I don't have a problem with this because in the real world age limit is only some rule, but when it comes to love there are not any laws.
     
    Flannen: Angelus is older but I'm not sure if Liam was older or younger than William? I might go try and find out! :p
    Wishing Oceans: Flannen, I just looked it up :D It said Spike was around 27- 30 when he was turned.
  4. Wishing Oceans

    Wishing Oceans I don't think, I know.

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    I suppose that's a pretty good argument. And to the Spike thing in School Hard, it was more lookie no touchie so I personally don't think it counts. :D

    Also, I was being a bit over dramatic with the "pedophile" thing but... I still think it's slightly creepy. It kinda reminds me of Connor/ Cordelia, only with an even bigger age difference. But that's just how my extremely spuffylicious mind sees it. :D

    "I think the title is disgusting. And I'm not going even to start this one all over again, I said my opinion on this. When she started dating him she was 16, he was 200, but she had to act like an adult. And for the law he doesn't exist, because he is a VAMPIRE! And I think William was older, he was showed much older then Liam, but we never really find out, so for me that is disgusting. Having sex with old vampire who you don't love. I don't have a problem with this because in the real world age limit is only some rule, but when it comes to love there are not any laws."

    Sorry if I offended you. :( Anyway, I agree with what you said about the law, that when it comes to love there aren't any laws, It just sorta disturbs me when I think of Dawn, at the same age as Buffy, or really any 15-16 year old girl in Buffy's place dating someone as old as Angel when she's that young. But that's just my opinion. :)
     
  5. Flannen

    Flannen Flannix

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    Whether it was 'lookie' or 'touchie' he intentions were much more that of a predator than Angel was. Angelus, on the hand..;)
     
  6. Wishing Oceans

    Wishing Oceans I don't think, I know.

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    That's true, but then again Spike WAS a predator. He didn't have a soul, but Angel did.
     
  7. Flannen

    Flannen Flannix

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    I agree with the soul thing. But as I don't think Angel was a predator I don't think it makes much difference. Which is why I said if it was Angelus, actually when it IS Angelus he is very much predator like. But as the relationship is with Angel and not Angelus, I guess it's a bit different.

    And yeah I looked it up too. Liam was 26 and William is between 27-30 years. According to Buffywiki anyway :)
     
  8. PrincessBuffy16

    PrincessBuffy16 Credit Card Slayer

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    Oh you didn't offended me, just I see it in the other way, because I can really relate with Buffy, and that thing with Angel was the best thing she did.
    And I don't think you can't compare Buffy and Dawn. Buffy became they slayer when she was 15. She had to save the world when she was 16, and she thought she is going to die. When she slept with her boyfriend he turned evil and she had to kill him. Then he came back, then he left, and she had another boyfriend who was sucked by the vampire slut, then she died again, pulled from Heaven and, well, you know the rest. She had to do some things a normal teen girl should never do, she had to make sam decissions, and she had the whole world in her hands, she was who was responsible for it. One, teen girl. And Dawn, well we met Dawn as little, selfish, stupid and annoying child, so I guess it would be creepy to se her with an vampire who is 236 years old.
     
  9. Wishing Oceans

    Wishing Oceans I don't think, I know.

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    Haha, I found it on Buffwiki too. :D Anyway, I agree that Angel wasn't a predator. He was quite a good person when he had a soul, not so much when he didn't. Although I wouldn't say Angel was a threat to Buffy, such a large age difference can lead to an unhealthy relationship, and getting hurt. And Buffy WAS hurt in the end, hurt very badly.

    And this is sorta off- topic, but Flannen, I just love your posts! :) You have such good wording and persuasive arguments. It's too bad we seem to disagree on everything. :cheers:

    :D I do have to agree with that. Buffy definitely is wise beyond her years, and it wouldn't really be fair to compare her to just any other girl. But... Darn you guys are sucking my arguments away! :D Don't you worry though, I'll come up with another argument soon, just you wait... *Evil cackle*
     
    Flannen: Aww, thank you! And it's good to disagree. It makes me for good discussion! I look forward to disagreeing with you more! :D
  10. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    I've never really felt that the age difference between a 16 year old girl and a 200 plus year old vampire, and a 20 year old woman and a 150 plus year old vampire, had any real bearing on anything. I liked Angel with Buffy for awhile, but she just outgrew him. They can both cling to their past and sing "The Green Leaves Of Summer" all that they want to, but the fact remains that their time is simply past.

    (Note: "The Green Leaves Of Summer" is the theme song from the 1960 version of "The Alamo" starring John Wayne. It refers to memories of past loves. Sort of.)

    If You're interested:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BRqA3DSmpc"]YouTube - The Green Leaves Of Summer Brothers Four[/ame]
     
  11. Joan the Vampire Slayer

    Joan the Vampire Slayer Carpe Spuffy!

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    Personally, this is something I struggle with regarding their relationship. I can see the justification for both arguments and why the age difference would bother some and not others. It's just personal opinion, really. Yet this doesn't change the facts; he was two lifetimes older than her.

    I get the argument that he saw that she was much more mature than other girls, and that he fell for her "heart", and I don't doubt he fell for her because he could relate to her. You don't choose who you love, it chooses you, right? I doubt he wanted to fall on love with Buffy! After all, wouldn't it have spared both of them so much pain? I got the idea he felt an undeniable pull towards her.

    YET

    Angel had been through so much more in his life then she had. He'd lived two lifetimes. His whole outlook, life experience, and worldview simply couldn't be compared on her level. One of the arguments supporters of this 'ship use for the justification is this theme that love is "ageless." I like this idea, I just don't know if I believe it as being an appropriate justification for a older man dating a minor. Since Angel is a vampire, human rules don't apply I guess, which would explain why Giles never mentioned the age difference as being an issue.

    I guess what I'm saying is that I honestly still don't know how I feel about this. I feel like his behavior with watching her get called was definitely bordering on stalkerish, but his intentions were certainly good. When we think of the word "pedophile" we usually think of a man who has the intention of taking advantage of or hurting a younger girl. I don't believe for a minute this is what Angel was doing. He never took advantage of her, but I do believe there is an interesting dynamic going on regarding the fact that she was soooo young when he fell for her.

    Surely, he was physically attracted to her along with being able to relate to her. Does it bother some people that this was the case? Yes, and it should. I guess it just boils down to whether or not this bothers you or not. And it's totally OK to say "Yes, it does bother me, and this is part of the reason Bangel doesn't work for me." And its OK to say "Well, love is ageless, and it didn't matter how old she was or how old he was."

    Ugh. Hopefully that little post of mine made some sort of sense.

    I guess nobody who 'ships Bangel really takes my comments on the two too seriously considering my obvious infatuation and devotion to Spuffy - but I do think I have and do consider all sides of the arguments regarding this.

    You're certainly not the first person to notice this.
    We talked about this pretty extensively in the "Bangel: On the Bubble" thread. Go check it out.

    ---------- Post added at 02:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:58 PM ----------

    Also, I think it's important to note in a fantasy show, rules of "reality" just don't really apply. This is why they could get away with Bangel and the general audience wasn't offended or disturbed by it. I mean, we have all sorts of representation of "unorthodox" or non-traditonal dating in this show; interracial, intersexual, interspecies even. So, dating someone two lifetimes older than you could be just another example of this non-tradtional dating theme Joss has been working with, get what I'm saying?

    And I actually agree about that scene with Spike in the Bronze. That was inappropriate.
     
    Wishing Oceans: You said it so much better that I ever could've :D
  12. Willow-Tree

    Willow-Tree Your Childhood Trauma

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    Even though James is older than David, I've always assumed that Spike was younger than Angel. Actually, I've always thought it went in the order that they were sired. Darla being the oldest and Spike being the youngest.
     
  13. Flannen

    Flannen Flannix

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    @Joan (sorry I forgot to quote! lol) Even though Buffy wasn't a minor at the time, Spike was also about two lifetimes older than her. So if your issue with the age difference in general, regardless of Buffy's age, then surely it's a problem with Spike too?

    And even though Spike and Dawn never had a romantic relationship it could also be considered very strange that they spent so much together...?

    I just don't think it's only something that is a problem, if you think it is, with Angel alone.

    And WA, I don't think they both cling to their past, or they wouldn't have both matured to the point they have now. Like all completely logical people, they just know that their 'time' is actually still to come ;)
     
  14. Joan the Vampire Slayer

    Joan the Vampire Slayer Carpe Spuffy!

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    Well, I think as humans, Liam and William were pretty much the same age.

    But yes, Angel is much older than Spike. He's somewhere around 240 around the time of Season 2, correct? And Spike is "barely 200" according to Giles.

    You're right, Darla mentioned at being around 400. Dru and Spike are the youngest of the Fanged Four.
     
  15. Wishing Oceans

    Wishing Oceans I don't think, I know.

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    That's a very good point, and I actually never thought of it that way. I think that the other non- traditional relationships were passed over because there more OK, as in the differences don't really seem to important, to me at least. Personally, I don't actually even have much of a problem with the age difference. I don't exactly agree with it, but it doesn't bother me that much. I mostly just thought it was a bit odd when I created this topic. :)
     
  16. Joan the Vampire Slayer

    Joan the Vampire Slayer Carpe Spuffy!

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    Like I said Flannen, I'm definitely on the fence so to speak regarding this issue. It gives me a funny feeling no doubt - Angel falling in love with her when she was so young - but I'm not necessarily claiming there was something "wrong" with it. It's just what it is. And yes, Spike's sexual attraction to Buffy when she was 17 was certainly inappropriate! But it is what it is, as well.

    I'm saying it's only an issue with Angel alone. I think the distinction between what Angel had with Buffy and what Spike had with Buffy is that Buffy was 16 when she started seeing Angel she didn't start "seeing" Spike until she was 21, right? The issue here i don't think is that both Angel and Spike were attracted to her - the issue I think, is Angel's willingness to developing a relationship with her. Spike was attracted to her when she was 17 - but he wanted to kill her, not date her.

    Spike and Dawn to me is a totally different situation. I find it interesting you made a comparison to them and to Bangel. Spike and Dawn has a completely sibling-like relationship. There was certainly no romance there. I see him as a sort of brother-figure to her, someone who understood her as an "Other" (like him). So, to me it's not "inappropriate" as there was no romance involved. He had no ulterior motives.

    And I agree, this older-dudes-hanging-with-younger-girls is an issue in the 'verse in general. Perhaps Bangel is just a great example of it.

    ---------- Post added at 02:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:20 PM ----------

    Agreed. It's definitely something worth talking about and considering, even if we don't have an issue with it.
     
  17. Flannen

    Flannen Flannix

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    I wasn't comparing Dawn and Spike to Bangel at all. I said 'even though they never had a romantic relationship' if we're going to look at the human like age, and take the fantastic element out of it, it is surely strange for them to be spending so much time together. Regardless of whether the relationship is 'sibling-like', they're not siblings.

    I agree that there is age issues all over the place. Giles and how much time he spends with them for one? Again if you take the fantasy-realm out of it. And now with
    Dawn and Xander in S8
    it's happening all over the place.

    And just because he mainly wanted to kill her, doesn't mean Spike didn't also want to date her! :p

    I wasn't meaning to argue with the point about Angel being lifetimes older than her. I was simply trying to determine what the issue was that you might have? Whether it's that he's lifetimes older than her alone, because Spike is too, or whether its more to do with Buffy's age. Cos I wasn't clear, and I'm still not even though you might have cleared it up...I don't know anymore! lol
     
  18. PrincessBuffy16

    PrincessBuffy16 Credit Card Slayer

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    I just don't understand one thing. When we are talking about Buffy, in other threads, you all say she is strong, and that she had to grow up faster, but when it comes to Bangel you see her like she is a little girl? How come?
     
  19. Joan the Vampire Slayer

    Joan the Vampire Slayer Carpe Spuffy!

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    Ugh, I'm probably just confusing everyone and myself. I'm tired lol

    I guess my personal issue is with Buffy's age at the time she meets Angel. It just...feels weird to me. But, I think my point about the rules of fantasy in this type of show is a good one. I just don't think the rules of real life dating apply in a show like this. I mean, if they did, we wouldn't have had quite a few of the relationships we had.

    So, pretend for a moment that Buffy was like, 21 when she met Angel. Would I feel funny about it the? No. Just like I don't really feel funny about her and Spike. So, I guess it really just is the age thing with me.

    ---------- Post added at 02:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:55 PM ----------

    This is a great point.

    There is a paradox here we should definitely discuss.

    Buffy is this strong, self-aware, individual, empowered chick with her own distinct identity who can take care of herself (feminist hero) yet in the context of her relationship with Angel, we see her as the "girl" and him as the "man."

    I wonder why that is? In theory, we shouldn't have an issue with Bangel and the age difference as she can and does take care of herself in the relationship.

    What do other people think of this contradiction PrincesBuffy has brought up?
     
    Flannen: lol, I getcha now! I probably had a hand in the confusion, it won't just be you! ;)
  20. Misty

    Misty

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    I agree, and also, Buffy wasn't so young when she was kind of dating Spike.