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Question Angel losing in Destiny

Discussion in 'Season 5' started by Puppet, Sep 3, 2017.

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Did you enjoy Angel losing the fight because?

  1. Spike is awesome and could beat Angel anytime!

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Angel is doubting himself and simply didn't want it as much

    3 vote(s)
    25.0%
  3. Other

    9 vote(s)
    75.0%
  1. Puppet

    Puppet Hands in the hair!

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    Black Thorn
    Am I the only Spike-fan who liked Angel losing the fight in Destiny because of Angel and not because I'm a Spike-fan?

    I always find it a breath of fresh air when writers aren't afraid to have their main characters fail against someone else, whether it's an enemy, an ally, or somewhere in between (which is, arguably, where Spike falls). It shows that Angel isn't perfect, that he's getting tired, too, (a running theme of S5), that, perhaps, Spike's words got to him, that he's lost faith in the Shanshu (another theme, imo).

    I thought the speech from Angel to Wesley was especially powerful, and it really didn't have much to do with Spike or how much I love that character.

    There is a reason I say I prefer Angel on his own show, but it's not about having him away from Buffy because I'm a Spuffy shipper, but because giving him a chance to build on his present (and background) shows me such a complex, fascinating character, who is full of both beauty and flaws, almost equally, and one of the episodes (of many, admittedly) that demonstrates this, imo, is this one.
     
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  2. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    I watch that episode from Spike's perspective. All the flashbacks tell Spike's story. I believe Spike won mainly because Angel made him angry. All his pent up frustration came out and Oedipus killed his father. Spike needs a reason to fight. That is why he is so pathetic in s4, even before the chip.
     
    Puppet: That's certainly an interesting way of looking at it
    Fool for Buffy: Thanks for saying what I would have said word for word
  3. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    It's definitely not 'Spike is awesome and could beat Angel anytime'. Spike won this fight, but could lose to Angel in another fight, it's like flipping a coin.
    However, I do think that Angel was tired, he's been chasing the shanshu and fighting the good fight for ages whereas Spike is new and hungry so that did work to Spike's advantage.
     
    Puppet: Yeah, agreed. Lol, the Spike one was for fun, hence the Other option ;)
    Mylie, AnthonyCordova and Puppet like this.
  4. AnthonyCordova

    AnthonyCordova Apocalypse Engine

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    Sineya
    If we are to believe Angel from that episode, that was the first time Spike had really beaten him, but I have always thought they were really rather close in fighting ability. Angel has lost plenty of fights though, and badly (his fights with the beast in the beginning were clear losses for example) and I agree that it is nice to see the hero lose sometimes, because it helps sustain the suspense.
     
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  5. dcai0830

    dcai0830 "Shoulder to shoulder. I'm yours."

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    I think of the Destiny fight as the perfect storm between what is going on with Spike and Angel respectively.

    Spike is desperate to prove to himself, more than anyone else, that he is worthy of Buffy over Angel because ultimately that is the great big shadow hanging over his head. Spike just regained his soul, he has just started his redemption path, for reasons I cannot understand and that I will not get into here ensouled Spike remains just as in love with Buffy as he was before he lost his soul and he feels closer to the finish line at this point, as if beating Angel and getting this redemption is the last obstacle to getting Buffy and being worthy of her.

    Angel, like @Athene says is tired. He has been burdened with a soul for over a hundred years, he has given up Buffy twice for her sake so that he can continue to help people, years ago (AtS season 1) he was presented with a glimmer of hope of gaining redemption, something that could potentially lead him back to Buffy a worthy champion, but after so many years of fighting and being knocked down he seems to believe that the glimmer of hope is all but fading away. He begins to fight not for the reward but because it is the right thing to do but when there is no end goal, when there is no end in sight during a war, it can become to feel overwhelming, and Angel is, at this point, a tired warrior. He is doubting his mission, he is doubting his tactics (W&H), he is having trouble believing in himself.

    When faced with Spike, it appears to me that Angel is trying desperately to fight for a long ago promised end goal but its no surprise that he doesn't have as much in the tank as Spike does at this point. And Spike overcomes him.

    I think overall Angel is the better fighter, in flash backs he is shown to be the dominant in strength and he is the older vampire. The fact that he loses to Spike is a great wake up call to Angel, and was it was necessary that he hit rock bottom in this way.

    Personally, I freaking hate this episode. The idea that Angel who has has lived with the burden of his soul for hundreds of years, who has been fighting for the side of good for 8 years, who has sacrificed his happiness a number of times, who has put himself on the line time and time again to help people; is now in competition for THE GREAT redemption with a Vampire that got his soul less than a year ago who seems only mildly regretful for his actions as a soulless demon is a bit laughable. But as hard as it is for me, as an Angel fan, to see this episode I understand its necessary to what comes next.
     
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  6. GoSpuffy

    GoSpuffy Vampire Lover, I mean Slayer

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    Black Thorn
    I didn't enjoy Angel losing the fight, I enjoyed Spike winning it. Spike is the classic under dog/outsider. He was the low man on the totem pole of the whirlwind and he was on the edge of the scoobies. He loved dru but could never get the same love back from her that he gave. He was on the outside when he was William. He finally won Buffy's Love and went up in flames. Spike makes me feel for him so it was so great to see him take down his sire and show that he wanted it more and that he could win when it was important enough. To me Angel was always stronger and smarter but Spike had more heart and more emotional IQ. Angel will likely win if it's only about brute strength but the destiny fight was more than that and Spike was using his knowledge of Angel to verbally bring the fight to him.
     
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  7. TriBel

    TriBel Potential

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    Totally agree. Spike's on a therapeutic journey. The soul and what preceded it were not simply about Buffy but about the lifting of repression in regard to what happened with his mother. S7 only addressed part of the problem - dropped another piece of the puzzle into place. Destiny added another. Spike was wrong to say he had free will after LMPTM - he won't have freewill until the therapeutic journey is over. He's been undertaking the "talking cure" ever since. Coming through the process won't necessarily stop him making bad choices but it gives him insight into why he makes certain choices. We see this in 10 - he makes mistakes but can reflect on why and make decisions based on reflection (for good or bad, take control of his destiny). Spike's psyche has demoted Angel who now functions in the role of elder brother. It was important (obvious reasons aside) that Spike didn't kill Angel or Angel didn't die in some other way because (following the logic - it's interesting @GoSpuffy uses the totem metaphor) Spike would have elevated Angel and tried to become him. Destiny, IMO, was healthy for both of them.

    I should have added - there's a strong correlation between Catholic confession and the talking cure. Isn't Angel catholic? As I understand it (and I'm not a therapist), therapy requires you to forgive yourself (and the mother but different story). With confession, absolution comes from God.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
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