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Angelus, But Different

Discussion in 'Season 2' started by white avenger, Aug 18, 2015.

  1. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Assume that the Initiative was up and running in Season 2 and somehow managed to put a chip in Angelus' head. How would it have changed his activities?

    Obviously, he wouldn't have been able to kill Jenny Calendar, but what I'm thinking about is, would the chip even keep him from directly ordering someone else to do it for him? Would the chip keep him from reassembling the jigsaw piece demon, knowing that doing so would result in the loss of human life? For that matter, would the chip even allow him to continue with his plans to destroy the world?
     
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  2. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    The short answer is yes he still would have been able to carry out must of his sinister plans because he could have gotten others to do his bidding for him. But Angelus would have been restricted because Spike being in the wheel chair and because he would not have been a threat to Buffy physically. Yes he would still have a psychology edge because of their personal moment together but he still would not have been able to do any physical damage to her or the other Scoobies. It would have been very different, but also not as good. The chip narrative works better for the Spike character because he is the more sly, slippery character, and as the villain of the piece throughout it created fresh possibilities.
     
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  3. Samuel Reyes

    Samuel Reyes Chilling in SunnyD

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    On that note, do you think the Scoobies could have succeeded in turning Angelus good had they gotten a hold of him (since he wasn't physically able to defend himself)? Spike made an attempt to change due to his feelings for Buffy. Angelus was near-incapable of feeling anything akin to love, yet do you think with a different strategy, the Scoobies could've somehow convinced him to change his ways?
     
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  4. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    I don't know, possibly not, but then in the long run it may not have effected them either way.
     
  5. Samuel Reyes

    Samuel Reyes Chilling in SunnyD

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    I personally don't think so. Angelus is still a master of psychological torment; regardless of how high the odds were stacked against him, he would have the Scoobies at each other's throats before he let them turn him good. 'Soulless' is a fine example of this: Angelus was behind bars with no way of escaping, yet in a matter of hours he had Wesley and Gunn throwing punches over something not even about him.
    - - -
    From TV Tropes:

    The Complete Monster is the most depraved of all characters; a villain utterly lacking in redeeming features.
    The character is a bad guy, full stop. The author has not taken the character through any actions toward redemption, or at least any that stuck.


    Sounds a lot like Angelus who, no coincidence, is the page image for Complete Monster on that site:
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Monster/LiveActionTV

    His entry even reads: 'Angelus, described by The Master as "The most vicious creature [he'd] ever met," set the gold standard for evil in the Buffyverse, for centuries the scourge of Europe, with countless murders, rapes and torture to his name. When he returned home, fresh from the grave, his little sister who opened the door remarked that he "had returned to her an angel." After slaughtering his family, he adopted the Latinate of angel (Angelus) as his name to mock that comment. Refusing to kill a longstanding nemesis vampire hunter, Angelus contented himself by murdering the man's wife and baby son, turning his young daughter into a vampire to force her own father to destroy her. His self-admitted masterpiece was seducing Drusilla, a pious, tormented girl with psychic powers, murdering her family and driving her to a convent before slaughtering everyone in the walls and turning her into a vampire to preserve his insane, broken work of art forever. When his soul is lost again, Angelus delights in psychologically tormenting his former beloved Buffy's friends and family out of disgust for the human feeling Buffy gave him. The ultimate culmination of this was brutal murder of Jenny Calendar, leaving the corpse for her lover Giles to find in a parody of a romantic rendezvous. Angelus's evil extended to his hope of awakening a demon to suck all of humanity into a hell dimension for eternal torture, solely for the fun involved.'

    No, from what we saw, nothing would put a cap on Angelus' evil-doing except maybe Darla (that is, if she weren't evil herself at the time).
     
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  6. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    I don't think he would lack for minions - vampire, demon, or human. He has a real knack for ensuring cooperation.
     
  7. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Not really. Spike was primarily, in his own words, "all about the kill." Despite the story about how he got his nickname, he was, basically, a straightforward killer, not a torturer or a master of mind games. Yes, he could come up with something like "The Yoko Factor," but it wasn't what defined his character. Physical violence was, and that is what the chip prevented.

    Angelus was just the opposite. Though he obviously was a skilled fighter, he was more apt to play mind games or use psychological torture and intimidation than to have to resort to physical violence. things like that, the chip didn't control (once more, "The Yoko Factor") The chip would have little or no "taming" effect on him like it did on Spike, and, without that, plus Spike's fixation on Buffy, there wouldn't be any hope of turning him good or even mildly trustworthy.
     
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  8. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    If this were Season 2 then Angelus would try and play Buffy, and he'd probably succeed. This is naive 17/18 year old Buffy who is still in love with Angel, so it wouldn't be that difficult.
    Something like how the chip (and the pain) is bringing all these memories to the surface- the memories of loving Buffy, of being with her, and how so its horrifying him but he can't stop thinking about her...' he'd playact all tormented around her (he wouldn't linger because of Giles and Xander) and act confused/run off occasionally. Slowly he would 'come round' to the idea of 'her her loving him as he was' or something like that. Bingo, she'd end up protecting him. Poor kid.

    Meanwhile he'd manipulate a gang of vamps simply by using his fearsome reputation as the Angelus and, with the slayer off his back, try and find a way for the chip to be removed- surgery or sorcery or however.
    I guess if Angel hadn't gotten his own show and stayed on Buffy they could've got some mileage with that plot (if for some reason Angelus couldn't be resouled right away).
     
  9. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    [I still think Angelus would have ripped that sucker out of his own head.]
     
  10. Silverspike

    Silverspike Scooby

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    And given himself brain damage in the process. I suspect. :D

    I think he'd just manipulate others to do his dirty work and get it out that way.
     
  11. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    He very well might have killed himself, but the point I was trying to make is that he wouldn't suffer the chip.
     
  12. Silverspike

    Silverspike Scooby

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    Yes, I gathered that. But personally I couldn't see him pulling the thing out like that. He's not that stupid. :D
     
  13. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    Whatever, I don't feel the need to argue about it.
     
    EVIL UU: Low quality post.
  14. Silverspike

    Silverspike Scooby

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    I'm not arguing, I'm doing what everyone else is doing on here and discussing it. :)
     
    Buffy Summers: I apologize if I misunderstood your motivation.
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  15. redruM

    redruM Potential

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    Man sometimes I need to just steer clear of threads like this... I just finished season 3 of Angel :|

    I had a feeling Angelus would show up again after S2 of Buffy, it was just a matter of when and how
     
    Buffy Summers: Aw :(
    GwenRaiden: Whoops :(
    Smile Time: Go finish seasons 4 and 5 first :P
  16. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Might be a viable solution in Angelus' case. His brain is probably as dried up and shriveled as his heart.
     
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  17. Sternbeeere

    Sternbeeere Glory┬┤s sane(?) groupie

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    Agree on that, i think Angelus would find ways to psychologically torment Buffy and the rest of the scoobies.
    However, i think Angelus, although on the one hand hating her for giving him human feelings, does "love" Buffy somehow, which is logical to me since Angelus is part of Angel. Yet, this kind of twisted, obsessive, sadistic love, would make things worse, not better. Since it would make him more eager to torment her psychologically, instead of becoming good himself.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 24, 2016 ---
    Also Spike generally has/had a different personality as a human and therefore has a totally different personality as a vampire. Spike was a sensitive person, lost and with a low self -confidence, he did not have that evil intentions as a human. Angelus however, was pretty much violent and ill-intended as a human as well, which makes me think that as a person he is more likely to tend to the evil site. And a chip would not be an obstacle here.
     
    Samuel Reyes: Serial killer love
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  18. GoSpuffy

    GoSpuffy Vampire Lover, I mean Slayer

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    Black Thorn
    Angel would have brooded about the chip. Not sure he would have ripped it out himself, he would have been concerned about his hair.