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Buffy Didn't Actually Kill Angel, Did She?

Discussion in 'Season 2' started by Aud, Jan 17, 2015.

  1. Aud

    Aud Scooby

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    From what I understand, a metal sword through the heart doesn't kill a vampire in the Buffyverse. Surely a seasoned slayer such as Buffy would know this. Indeed, this is all Buffy did to Angel, in order to shed his blood and thereby close the Acathla thing. And we also know from Connor's time in Quor'toth and Fred's time in Pylea that going to another dimension doesn't mean you died; it just means you crossed over into another dimension. So why is this incident in "Becoming, Pt. II" always referred to as "the time Buffy killed Angel"? Has this already been answered somewhere (my apologies if it has)?
     
  2. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    No, he didn't die- because when he came back he was alive and kicking (and snarling).
    But for all Buffy and Co. knew there was no coming back from Acathla's hell dimension so really it was just as good as killing Angel (or worse). Angel had gone to 'another place' and was never coming back, so it was, in essence, like Buffy had killed him.

    Although, wasn't it supposed to be some sort of magic/blessed sword? I don't think we're told if magic weapons can kill vampires just by stabbing them in the heart- I guess it's possible- but Angel was certainly 'alive' enough to be tortured and tormented for hundreds of years (since he had a soul/humanity).
     
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  3. sk73

    sk73 The Overlooked One

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    Sineya
    I think there is a couple of reasons to why it's often referred to as she killed him. (I do it myself all the time)

    One is of course that it's easy to believe that she actually did killed him when you first watch the show.
    So that kinda sticks with you even after you've learned what actually happened later in the show.

    Another one I think is because the show and Buffy herself referred to it as she killed Angel.
    She does it in "Faith, Hope & Trick". That's before he returned though.
    But also in "Selfless" when she definitely knows better.

    Finally, I just thinks it's easier to say she killed him instead of getting into hell dimensions and strange stuff like that. :)

    /SK
     
  4. Taake

    Taake Tweedledee Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    Sending him to a hell dimension with not forseeable hope of ever coming back is more or less killing in my opinion. She may not have killed him physically but she sent him to hell... at that point she obviously didn't know he would be coming back so the fact that she was willing to sacrifice him in that way meant that she was in fact willing to effectively put an end to his life. That's why I think Buffy herself always refer to it as though she killed him, because she was ready to do so at that point.
     
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  5. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Killing him would have been more merciful than what she did. If not for the Powers that Be, he would still be stuck in a hell dimension, feral and moody with poor hygiene.
     
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  6. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    When a vampire is destroyed in the Buffyverse, he or she turns to dust almost instantaneously, so fast that, if the stake isn't pulled away quickly enough, it might disintegrate right along with the body. Putting a sword through Angel's withered up little walnut of a heart would hurt, but not kill. I think that Buffy referred to stabbing Angel, even as late as in Season 7. as "killing" was just her way of denying that he was, in fact, suffering in some hell dimension, maybe wondering why the woman he loved had betrayed him in such a fashion, rather than having gone out quickly, cleanly. and more or less painfully.

    Ironically, stabbing Angel in the chest the way that she did might have been the best thing that Buffy could have done for Angel, because it sent him to hell with a usable weapon. That sword might very well been the greatest single factor in his managing to survive for 100 years (?) before coming back.
     
  7. Blaze

    Blaze Let it Burn

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    Black Thorn
    What is killing anyway? I mean, isn't Buffy being in heaven in s5-6 the same as Angel being in hell in s2-3.

    Regardless, sometimes it's the action that counts. Whether she kills him or not, she meant to kill when she put that sword in his chest. So in her head. she definitely did kill him. She just got lucky that he came back (which I still think was very deus ex machina).
     
  8. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Would've been nice if Angel had made a joke about that at some point- 'Hey thanks for the sword Buffy. Really came in handy after I removed it from my chest cavity.' ;)
    Might've made Buffy feel a bit better about the whole thing.
     
    white avenger: Yeah, well, Angel always was an ungrateful b*****d. He probably never thanked Whistler for getting him out of that rat infested alley, either.
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  9. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    No, Angel being in hell between Seasons 2 & 3 is like Buffy being in hell at the beginning of Season 3. In both those cases, body and soul remained a single unit, and in both those cases, the person involved traveled between the normal world and hell physically, like walking through a door. When Buffy died at the end of Season 5, her body remained in the physical world, and only her soul went into what she conceived as being heaven. Returning to the normal world involved restoring and reanimating her physical body, then retrieving and rejoining her soul with it
     
  10. Lyri

    Lyri Buckle Up Tight

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    Sineya
    I think it has more to do with that fact that...he went to Hell.

    This is a girl who, until the age of 15, knew nothing about the supernatural world. I don't know much about the Californian school system, but I imagine she was taught about religion in a similar way that I was, in that, when you die, you either go to heaven or you go to hell. (For the record, I'm Atheist and believe none of this, but it's still what I was taught in the late 90's.) Angel went to hell, and in Buffy's naive 17 years on the earth, she 'knew' that that was the end. If Angel was in hell, that had to mean that he was dead and she was the one who sent him to hell, therefore, she killed Angel.
     
  11. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    And that might have been understandable at the moment that Buffy put that sword into Angel's chest, despite the fact that, by that time, she had had over 2 years experience seeing vampires explode into clouds of dust when they truly died. Just a few months later, however, she, herself, went to hell without dying, and returned without being reborn or resurrected. From that point on, she would have known that if Angel went through that portal in one piece, she hadn't killed him.
     
  12. Aud

    Aud Scooby

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    Off topic, but as a person who was educated in California, I feel I should respond here. No student in the California public school system will have received any formal or sanctioned lesson on religious doctrine. If Buffy was taught anything about religion, it was not in school.

    Good points here. And not to split hairs to an annoying degree, but I think there is a difference between what Buffy believed she did to Angel versus what actually happened according to the rules of the 'verse. (Although, like you say, Buffy had dusted enough vampires to know what they look like when they actually die.)
     
  13. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Technically speaking, Darla killed Angel. Buffy just sent him to another dimension.
     
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  14. Taake

    Taake Tweedledee Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    Technically Darla killed Liam... ;)
     
  15. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

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    Black Thorn
  16. janas

    janas Bangel in the soul

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    And this brings us back to the discussion in question. Technically speaking Angel killed Darla, she was dusted but she's back, then dust or not, vampires can return to "life" whether they are killed with a stake or with a magic sword. In the "Anne" episode we have a visual representation of what can be a hell dimension. Buffy and Lily were still alive in that dimension, but for the world they were dead (disappeared) and soon they would find their bodies grown old as with Ricky. Obviously it goes without saying that in "Anne" many are references to Angel and to hell dimension in which he is located.

    @Aud Off topic, then you're in luck, because in Italy a similar situation is unthinkable. In our public school system, right from kindergarten, is imparted a strict religious upbringing. Although the Department of Public Education has opted for the inclusion of religious education with the opportunity to choose not to do it, no one chooses that option because the children who do not follow the school subject, end up out of the classroom with the janitors, waiting for it to finish the lesson of religion, then no parent chooses this option. I speak from personal experience, unfortunately.
     
  17. Lyri

    Lyri Buckle Up Tight

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    Sineya
    Like I said, I don't know anything about the Califronian education system. Here in Northern Ireland, we have at least one class of Religious Education a week while we're in compulsory education (ages 4 to 16), more when we get to high school.
     
  18. Aud

    Aud Scooby

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    And that's not to say Buffy didn't have any thoughts or beliefs regarding death/heaven/hell at that point; I was just clarifying that that view would not have come from her public education. The only time religion is mentioned in public schools is during history lessons, when a particular religious movement had some sort of significance. But we would never get into the theological tenets of those specific religions.

    Oh interesting. But yes, not totally pertinent, but again, just clarifying that whatever Buffy's beliefs about death, etc. at that point, they didn't come from school.

    Haha touche indeed. But yeah just to be clear, I was talking about the "final" death of a vampire, as in...the end of the vampire's "life," not just the human life (I'm not sure if they had a different, more technical term for this "second" death in the Buffyverse...)
     
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  19. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    [QUOTE="janas, post: 1130338, member: 10426" In the "Anne" episode we have a visual representation of what can be a hell dimension. Buffy and Lily were still alive in that dimension, but for the world they were dead (disappeared) and soon they would find their bodies grown old as with Ricky. [/QUOTE]

    I fail to see how "missing" can be considered synonymous with "death," regardless of how much that they might age in a hell dimension. Missing and PRESUMED dead, possibly, but the mere assumption doesn't make it so.
     
  20. janas

    janas Bangel in the soul

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    Because Buffy and Lily managed to run away before it happened, otherwise they would died a few hours later, just as happened to Ricky.
    ...and I didn't use the term "missing" but "disappeared"
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2015