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But she doesn't love me...

Discussion in 'Season 4' started by brittles, Nov 26, 2016.

  1. brittles

    brittles Scooby

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    Sineya
    This scene really bothers me and makes me sad. Riley is helping Xander pack up his stuff in the basement and he is talking to Xander about how much he cares for Buffy going as far as to call her "the one." Then all of a sudden he finishes this really heart warming speech with "but she doesn't love me" and shatters your whole hope for their relationship into itty bitty pieces. It's so upsetting. I feel so much for his character in this moment. He knows she'll never truly be in love with him. Why? What's Buffy's deal? I know there aren't a lot of Riley fans out there but I really liked their relationship and have a hard time understanding why she can't connect with Riley. Is he not enough of a challenge for her? Too reliable? What is it?
     
  2. Blaze

    Blaze Let it Burn

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    Black Thorn
    I think Riley was projecting his insecurities onto Buffy instead of talking to her about it. That's partially why the relationship failed in my opinion, because instead of dealing with the problems he had with the relationship with, you know, Buffy herself, he just bundled it in or talked about it with other characters. I don't think the relationship failed because of Buffy's lack of love for him, in fact, I do believe she loved him. Just maybe not the way Riley wanted to be loved, which is a perfectly valid reason to leave the relationship, but you can't put the fault on Buffy for loving the wrong way.
     
  3. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    As @Blaze said, the end of Buffy and Riley's relationship was on Riley as much as it was on Buffy... BUT, I agree that Buffy didn't love Riley (she cared about him, of course, and a LOT, but she didn't love him), and I think she had a very specific reason for that - she was traumatized by her relationship with Angel, and therefore she was afraid to open up to people. Specifically, she was traumatized by THIS scene, in 'Innocence':



    Buffy loved Angel completely, she was completely open to him, completely vulnerable, and he used that vulnerablility to DESTROY her emotionally. After that, Buffy was never able to trully love any of her other boyfriends (Riley, Spike). As the first slayer said, "love is pain" - true love means true vulnerablity, and vulnerability can lead to great pain. And after Angel, Buffy didn't want to be that vulnerable with ANYONE. She didn't want to let anyone hurt her like that again, ever. She didn't even want to love Angel anymore, but with him, she she was stuck - she was already in love with him, and she couldn't stop loving him, no matter what ("I wish that I wished you dead. I don't. I can't"). So with Riley, there was just no chance - Buffy wasn't gonna let herself love Riley, even if Riley truly was "the god of boyfriends" (which, obviously, he wasn't. He was just a human being, after all, and human beings are flawed).

    Fun fact - with the exception of Angel, Buffy never said "I love you" to any of her boyfriends throughout the series, not even ONCE... Until 'Chosen'. In the final episode of the series, Buffy finally realized something:

    "I always figured there was something wrong with me". The way I see it, this is about what Angelus told her in 'Innocence', when he brutalized her with his words. She said then - "Was it me? Was I not good?" And she never really got over that feeling, until season 7. In those final few episodes, she saw that the vulnerability and pain of love are a part of life no matter what you do (*cough* 'Empty Places' *cough*), and that avoiding it is both impossible and dangerous. And, well, just watch those DVD's - season 7, episodes 18-22.
    Point being: In 'Chosen', Buffy was finally able to say "I love you" again, this time to Spike. Not because he was some godly perfect boyfriend (he wasn't), but because she stopped being deathly afraid of failure and pain. She "risked the pain", as the first slayer told her back in season 5. And when the pain came, when Spike died in the battle, Buffy was still able to embrace her life in the end of that final episode, and smile.



    Boy, I just ramble on... Sorry if this was just boring nonsense. Here, have a puppy gif:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2016
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  4. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    I also think what happened with Parker reinforced Buffy's insecurities, she slept with him, he said he'd call her but didn't then brushed her off like it was no big deal when it clearly meant something to Buffy.

    Also I think Buffy never really got over Angel, her cookie dough speech wasn't telling him to move on but to wait. She told Spike she loved him as he was about to die, but one of Spike's defining traits throughout the series is that he can see through to people's real emotions eg he saw that Willow was falling apart after Oz left even though everybody else thought she was doing ok. When Buffy tells him she loves him and he replies "no you don't but thanks for saying it", he knows Buffy is only telling him that because he's about to die and she thinks it's what he wants to hear. Now Buffy did have feelings for Spike but I don't think they were love on the level that she had for Angel.

    In regards to Riley, I think Buffy enjoyed being with him. He was safe and reliable, he hunted demons for a living so could understand her role as the slayer, he was the perfect boyfriend she could bring home to Joyce, BUT she still had lingering feelings for Angel. Buffy wouldn't cheat on Riley but she kept him at bay emotionally which was something that began to get to Riley and make him feel insecure.
     
  5. brittles

    brittles Scooby

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    Sineya
    I agree and think that she loved Riley but was never IN LOVE with Riley. Huge difference. The whole fiasco with Parker 110% reinforced all of the strong insecurities she was burdened with after sleeping with Angel and all the badness that ensued thereafter. It's unfortunate that this happened again so soon after the incident with Angel. That obviously left deep emotional damage that inevitably carried into her relationship with Riley even though there was no way he would hurt her in that way...until he went and started getting " the juice sucked out of him by some undead ladies of very questionable reputation" i guess. : / Even so that was him just grasping at straws to feel some deep emotional connection with anyone or anything since he never got that from Buffy. Like he said those vampires NEEDED him. Buffy intentionally or not made it pretty clear that he wasn't high on the priority list of needing. Maybe their whole relationship was just bad timing? If Buffy had never gone through the whole thing with Parker and had more time to let the Angel wound heal maybe then she would have been in a better place to make their relationship work. I don't know. It just makes me sad to see what could have been a solid and great relationship fail. Their break up was heart wrenching.
     
  6. brinkster130

    brinkster130 Riley's BFF Staff Member

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    Sineya
    It wasn't about Riley not being challenging enough, or him being too reliable; he just wasn't the one for her. It's was as simple as that. Not everyone you date and love is going to be someone that you can or will be with long term; and really that isn't a bad thing. That was just the moment when Riley finally put two and two together and realized their romantic relationship probably wasn't going to work.
     
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  7. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    I think Riley's issues all stem from the fact that he likes to be needed and Buffy didn't need him. Riley wants to play the big strapping hero but Buffy doesn't need him to, hence why when Buffy got injured in fool for love, Riley went all out to "avenge" her on those vampires because in his mind, Buffy "needed" him in that moment. It also probably really irked Riley that Spike knew more about Joyce's health problems and how Buffy felt about it than he did especially when he is meant to be the comforting boyfriend. Riley's hatred of Spike plus Spike stirring things up only made Riley even more insecure about Buffy.
     
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  8. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    Back in "The Puppet Show", Sid the Dummy tells Buffy, "Once you've had wood, nothing's as good." You could paraphrase this with Buffy as, "Once you've had the undead, there's nothing instead."

    Combine this with the fact that Riley was looking for someone who needed him when Joyce was sick but Buffy saw him as another burden to carry and you have two people at cross purposes. Riley was looking for a 1950's housewife of the sort Ted had wanted and Buffy was never about that.
     
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  9. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Oh, definitely. A lot of people never got why Buffy took the Parker thing so hard, but it always made perfect sense to me - Buffy was just triggered, in a way. It was 'Innocence' all over again, but without the excuse of soullessness.

    Yeah, I agree. I don't understand WHY she couldn't get over him, because I never really understood what she saw in him, but you're right - Buffy never stopped loving him. Hopefully season 8 fixed that...

    Correct. Well, I don't know if it told Angel "to wait", but it wasn't telling him to move on either. It was just saying that she didn't want to make any decision about that issue right now.

    1) I don't think that Spike's trait is that he sees people's real emotions, I think his trait is that he always sees their NEGATIVE emotions.
    2) I think that Buffy totally meant it when she told Spike that she loved him in 'Chosen'. Spike just didn't believe her. He said back in 'The Gift' that "I know you'll never love me", and he meant it. He didn't think he was worthy of her love. But Buffy did.
    3) At the same time, I think it's safe to assume that she didn't love Spike AS MUCH as she loved Angel.

    Oh, I don't think the problem was Buffy's love for Angel. She knew that she and Angel could never be together, by then. The problem was Buffy's fear of vulnerability, as I said.
     
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  10. Dora

    Dora Potential

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    I dont think she loved Spike at the end she never gave any indication of it no she told a dying man what she thought he would want to hear thats all , she said to Dawn I feel for him, she probably got fond of him , but certainly was never in love with him
    I think she was very hurt by Parker,felt used by him and another reason she felt bad in her mind about using Spike
    As for Riley I think Brinkster is right Riley just was not the one for her long term, Spike wanted to Drive them apart and Riley gave him the cause with his visits to the Vamps if their relation ship had been stronger it should have servived.Riley did what Angel had done and what Giles would do later just walk out of her life. No I think Riley wanted a old faction girl someone pretty much dedicated to him. Buffy was not that girl, how could she be dedicated seriously to anyone and plan for a long any long term future together .....she did not Know if she would make it back the next night
     
  11. brinkster130

    brinkster130 Riley's BFF Staff Member

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    Sineya
    I don't get where people get this idea. Nothing about Buffy was 1950's housewife and that was clear pretty early on. If that's what Riley wanted then why stay with Buffy for so long? And why marry Sam who was nothing like a 1950's housewife either? If anything Sam was more of an equal to him. We've literally never seen Riley with someone who was like a 1950's housewife.
     
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  12. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    I don't think Riley wanted a "1950's housewife" but I do think he wanted to be the dominant one in the relationship. He didn't like the fact that Buffy didn't need him.
     
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  13. brinkster130

    brinkster130 Riley's BFF Staff Member

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    Sineya
    But what makes you think that? When he found out Buffy was a slayer he thought it was cool and wanted to hunt vampires with her. He never suggested Buffy couldn't or shouldn't be the slayer. IMO him wanting someone who loved him back in the way he needed often gets confussed with him needing to be dominant.

    Further proof of that is Sam. He married another demon hunter who worked in secret ops....someone who was professionally his equal. If he wants to be the dominant one so bad it makes no sense that the two serious relationships we saw him in were with very strong women.
     
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  14. Taake

    Taake Tweedledee Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    Definitely this.
    They had a normal, decently long, romantic relationship and it didn't work out because they weren't really on the same level. Had Riley stayed maybe they could have worked it out, with better communication, because it wasn't as if Buffy was indifferent to him. But his needs weren't being met so he left and found someone who could give him what he needed.


    I loathe this type of Buffy needs a bit of monster in her man myth. It's a logical fallacy that because her relationship with Riley didn't work out, it proves that she needs to monster mash. Maybe she just needs another human guy better suited to her. Going back to the undead is basically a regression.
     
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  15. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Buffy doesn't need a bit of monster in her man, she needs a bit of slayer in her woman! ;)

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Taake

    Taake Tweedledee Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    Well played.
    I think there are few Fuffy fans who might disagree about which Slayer she needs ;)
     
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  17. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Hey, this isn't an either/or situation. The more the merrier!:) And they're both dark-haired, and Buffy just looks good with dark-haired women:

    [​IMG]

    Although, if we're talking about Buffy's optimal relationship, then I think it has to be Satsu.
    Faith just has too much bad history with Buffy. You know how a lot of people have a problem with Spuffy because Spike tried to rape Buffy? Well, Faith DID rape Buffy, in the body-switch episode. And there's tons of bad stuff there, even outside of that one incident. As a love interest for Buffy, Faith is just as problematic as the two vampires... Only she's even worse, in a way, because she didn't have the excuse of being soulless when she did those terrible things..

    [​IMG]

    Satsu, on the other hand, just had a much more positive relationship with Buffy. In fact, I'd say that Buffy/Satsu was the healthiest romantic relationship that Buffy EVER had, by far (It wasn't perfect, of course, but it was as close as Buffy ever got). I think that if we're ranking by how healthy they were, then Buffy's main relationships would go like this (from worst to best):

    4. Spuffy.
    3. Bangel.
    2. Briley.
    1. Batsu.

    Also, I think Buffy just had more chemistry with Satsu than with Faith...:p

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2016
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  18. Taake

    Taake Tweedledee Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    I wasn't arguing with you, haha, I'm not convinced of either Fuffy or Batsu for my part.

    Now let's get this thread back to the topic of Riley. :)
     
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  19. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Oh, I know, I just never miss an opportunity to ramble about Batsu.:)

    :(

    Aye!

    I always felt that Satsu was, in many ways, what the writers originally tried to create with Riley - a love interest who WASN'T a vampire, who'd allow Joss to get away from "that Anne Rice stuff" that he always disliked. And both characters suffered from bad fan-reaction, too (although I personally think that Satsu worked much better in the story than Riley. Obviously).

    And I think that both characters were eventually phased out because of that bad fan reaction. If Riley got popular with the fans, then Joss would have surely kept his relationship with Buffy alive for much longer.

    Interestingly, though, both relationships broke up for different reasons - Briley broke up because of Buffy's fear of vulnerability, whereas Batsu broke up because Buffy just wasn't gay (which means that they broke up because of Buffy's nature, which fits the themes of season 8, just as Buffy's breakup with Riley was part of Buffy's "turning to stone" arc, which is the big theme of season 5).

    Here endeth the ramble....
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2016
  20. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    He didn't like it that Buffy wasn't crying on his shoulder during Joyce's health issues. The closest he got to what he wanted was going after the vampire that stabbed Buffy with her own stake because he was "making it better". Sam would cry on his shoulder because he's her husband but Buffy had other people around her that she shared her worries with, Riley just wasn't at the top of the pecking order.