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Canon Watch (Spoilers for current issue)

Discussion in 'Season 8' started by nerd4hire, Jun 7, 2007.

  1. nerd4hire

    nerd4hire Certified Uncloneable

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    There's a thread elsewhere on the boards asking the question "Are you still a fan if you avoid the comics?"

    One of the conclusions come to appears to be you're not so much a poor Buffyverse fan as an uninformed one.

    So mister nice guy here figured "What the Hell, post a thread updating people who either choose to avoid the comics, or don't have access to them on developments in Buffyverse canon".

    I'm going by memory so feel free to correct, or add.

    Issue # 1

    1. There are 1800 new slayers counted.

    2. 500 of those work actively in a new organization set up by Buffy and the Scoobs. Buffy, Dawn, and Xander are centered in Scotland. Andrew runs a cell in Italy. Giles is at an undetermined location. Willow is a question mark.

    3. They appear to be well financed, and have access to high tech such as helicopters, Kevlar, viewer screens, satellite access, GPS tracking capability, and harpoon guns for rappelling. They still don't use guns.

    4. There are 2 doppleganger Buffys. The impersonators were set up to protect Buffy as she was being tageted. One is underground - literally. The other is the Buffy we saw in Girl in Question who was dating the Immortal. Andrew set that one up, because he thought it would be funny.

    5. There are new slayers. Read about them HERE

    6. Xander is referred to by Buffy as her watcher, but she may speaking facetiously.

    7. Dawn has lost her virginity to something, or someone called Kenny the Thricewise. For "Thricewise" see HERE. The experience has caused her to grow into a giant.

    8. A Military organization within the government is not happy with Buffy and the new slayers. They blame them for the hole in the ground that is Sunnydale, and fear them as a terrorist organization.

    9. Amy lives. She was buried under the rubble of Sunnydale with an unknown boyfriend. She appears insane, and wants to kill Buffy.

    Issue # 2

    1. Dawn was supposed to be at Berkeley.

    2. At least some members of the military belong to an organization which tattoos symbols to their chests signifying twilight.

    3. Buffy's group also has girl witches. Buffy sleeps with mystic protection.

    4. One of the new slayers - Renee - has a crush on Xander.

    5. Amy is very powerful. She raises the Scottish dead to create a Zombie army. Her power is at least close to a par with Willow's.

    6. The Scottish castle uses human guards as well as mystical protections.

    7. Giles puts a little more meat on what we know about the watchers.


    Issue # 3

    1. Ethan Rayne lives. He has been kept captive all this time in a military prison, but can do the out-of-body thing.

    2. Willow is mega-powerful. She can fly, and shoot power bolts out her hands like Doctor Strange.

    3. Remember Willow saying "Magic works off science"? Another layer is added to that. Magic can be decoded. Also..."Serious magic is kinda like improv...You can't just stop it cold. You gotta adapt."

    4. A new concept is introduced. Dreamspace. Ethan explains it as follows.

    "In brief, you ar always dreaming every dream you could dream all the time. Even when you're awake. A part of your brain is stirring that brew. Which one you choose to remember in the morning is based on wishes, anxietries - in your (Buffy's) case your collective slayer memory and prophecies are mixed in as well. It's a vast and fascinting place. Everywhere you turn, a part of you..."

    5. When two dreamscapes are connected. One participant gets access to the other's.

    6. The Watcher's can negotiate with the demon realm.

    7. Willow is having relationship problems with Kennedy. Kennedy died as a result of some sort of mystical thing, and was brought back. Apparently it freaked her. Her and Willow are on some sort of hiatus from each other.

    8. Warren lives. He still has no skin.

    Issue # 4

    1. Warren is Amy's boyfriend. Amy rescued him at the moment dark Willow peeled his skin away towards the end of Season 6. Amy's magic somehow protects Warren's skinless body. Warren was in on the spell from Season 7's Killer in Me where Willow turned into Warren. He wants revenge on Buffy and Willow. He tries to lobotomize Willow.

    2. Dawn is not as proportionately strong as she is large, but apparently she can still smash a castle wall into rubble, so I'm not sure I get that one.

    3. Dawn tells Buffy she thinks of Willow as like a mother to her. This creates suggested hurt feelings in Buffy.

    4. Another reality is introduced Willow has access to. There are five alien female entities inhabiting it. They seem connected to mega-witch Willow in some way. Willow can disconnect her body from her essence by going there. More on those entities HERE

    5. Buffy thinks of the new slayer Satsu as the most powerful of the new group. Satsu is humble about the assessment.

    6. Buffy didn't leave the scythe on the top of the bus. She's still got it, and she brings it out when she needs it.

    7. The slayer-witches can create a magic mirror thing which will reflect energy.

    8. Buffy defines her rules of engagement concerning human enemies and demon enemies.

    "Kill any demons you see. Humans, you go for the wound, unless they get stupid."

    9. Inferior magic is referred to as a light show (done twice.)

    10. Willow can heal human injuries. Even serious ones.

    11. Ethan Rayne is killed by a military member of the Twilight organization to keep Buffy from learning too much.
     
    Angelic Slayer: I have to admit, I think you are pretty much an idol for making this thread.... from the bottom of my comic-less heart-- THANK YOU! :)
  2. alexa

    alexa rip it up

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    I'm wondering if Tales of the Vampires is canon. If it is then Xander spent a year about with Dracula as his man servant until Buffy found him.. kinda interesting.. or I'm just over thinking :p
     
  3. nerd4hire

    nerd4hire Certified Uncloneable

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    Here's another one. Joss is listed as one of the writers on Long Night's Journey, but if you believe that one is canon you also believe the Gypsy curse was meant for another vampire, not Angel.

    The difference between Long Night's Journey, Tales or the vampire, Tales of the slayers, and Buffy Season 8 is not only is Joss taking an open, active organizational role in Season 8, but he has openly proclaimed it canon. That's something he didn't to for the Tales stories, or LNJ.

    You might be able to make a better case for Fray as canon, because not only was that totally his baby, but he has openly acknowledged the need to fix the discrepancies between Fray and BTVS. He has also taken from Fray and given to Buffy in the case of the scythe. In other words he's saying what happens in the one affects what happens in the other.

    Here's what Joss says on Canon.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffyverse_canon

    Edit

    Oh, and here's one I forgot to add to the list above - Xander wears ducky pyjammas
     
  4. Whistler

    Whistler The Guide

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    7. The slayer-witches can create a magic mirror thing which will reflect energy.

    You really think they created that mirror? I figured it was just a regular mirror. Xander said "Magic. It's all done with mirrors." I just got the feeling by that and the look of it that it was just a regular mirror.
     
  5. nerd4hire

    nerd4hire Certified Uncloneable

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    They don't know what going to come through that portal when they open it. All they know is Amy is a powerful witch. They appear prepared to deflect large amounts of energy.

    From a canon point of view what I specifically meant was Buffy's crew of girl witches, appear to have significant power. They're not just floating pencils.

    Hang on though, I'll post pics, and show you what I mean.

    Edit

    OK. Here ya go. You tell me if it really is all done with mirrors. Here they are preparing for the portal to open.

    [​IMG]

    Here they are reflecting the energy bolt blasting through the portal.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Whistler

    Whistler The Guide

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    I wasn't taking Xander literally about all magic being about mirrors, i just thought that one part was just a normal mirror used to reflect w/e was being sent at them
     
  7. nerd4hire

    nerd4hire Certified Uncloneable

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    Well, there's the picture right above your post. If it's a mirror, what's holding it up? Doesn't look like any mirror I've ever seen. What are they preparing for in the picture above that. Is that a "holding up the mirror" exercise? ;)
     
  8. CharmedSlayer85

    CharmedSlayer85 Potential

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    What I'm wondering though is what exactly gives a witch it's power. Is it research? Cause why is it that Tara has been studying magick since she was a child, but didn't come close to having the power that Willow had before she went evil. Why is it that Amy has also been studying longer than Willow but yet Willow still had more power than Amy before she went evil. I understand now that Willow going evil is really what gave her the power she has now, because the magick is inside her now which is part of the reason she can never quick using magick, however even before she went evil she was incredibly powerful, more powerful than people who've been studying longer and harder. Even Amy mentioned that people have to study twice as hard to get only half as good. So again I'm wondering what is it exactly that gives a witch their power? Like even Jonathan who was basically a studying warlock for a while is considerably very weak by warlock standards. Also how come we've never seen a powerful warlock on the show...I should be that warlock
     
  9. alexa

    alexa rip it up

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    Some people are naturally gifted silly.

    Anyways the mirror thing didn't bother me.. reminds me of "The Witch"
     
  10. Rowan Hawthorn

    Rowan Hawthorn Potential

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    In the first picture, they're preparing to open the portal. Notice the color of the glowing ball and the color of the portal itself. Also, the clothing colors of the witches match in the two pictures, even though the drawings are slightly different in the second.

    The mirror is a parabolic reflector (like the reflector in a flashlight or a parabolic antenna, designed to focus reflected radiation to a single point rather than allowing it to scatter,) mounted on a wooden carriage similar to what would be used for a small catapult - the frame and wheels are clearly visible. Actually, considering the communications equipment available to the team, it may even have originally been a parabolic antenna.
     
  11. nerd4hire

    nerd4hire Certified Uncloneable

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    You're right of course. I had it completely turned around in my head, like the mirror was the portal. Believe it or not, I didn't see the wooden frame until you just pointed it out to me. I had it stuck in my head that the two witches behind the portal were the ones responsible for the activity. Nevertheless the main point stands. You have witches capable of opening portals, which according to Get It Done requires some expertise and power. My point is Buffy's girl witches have power.
     
  12. Rowan Hawthorn

    Rowan Hawthorn Potential

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    Certainly, and they're referred to as "apprentice witches." In "Get It Done," Willow specifically stated that she had no idea how to open a time-space portal, and only succeeded by raw power - using a battering ram instead of a key, so to speak. Now the apprentices are doing it with relative ease. Either they have a great teacher (Willow or someone we haven't yet seen,) or these girls have exceptional natural talent.
     
    nerd4hire: Good posts man. Thanks for keeping me honest.
  13. nerd4hire

    nerd4hire Certified Uncloneable

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    Yeah, portal opening is confusing. I think it needs it's own thread. I'll open one.
    Feel free to join me HERE, as I seek help in sifting through the mythology.
     
  14. nerd4hire

    nerd4hire Certified Uncloneable

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    Issue # 5

    1. There are underground (literally) societies of Demons which do not appear to be necessarily locked to a hellmouth (dimensional transfer), or sewer society. The name of Buffy Summers is known to these "under-communities".

    2. More fuel for the "Are the Tales of the Slayers Comics/TPBs canon?" debate.

    We see an image of the chain of slayers going back in time. They are The Primitive, and a number of slayers from Tales of the Slayers. So if Joss specifically requested them then, yeah, it would seem to suggest Joss considers Tales of Slayers canon. However, there's a new artist on this issue. Georges Jeanty was Joss's hire. In the letters section I get the impression the Dark Horse editor is suggesting the new artist is his hire, and seems to be some kind of Dark Horse contract guy. So, how do we know the Tales of the Slayers slayers in The Chain aren't just something Dark Horse snuck in to add a new layer of credibility to a series which as of yet hasn't been universally accepted as canon.

    3. There are cheesy TV commercials (they appear to star Andrew and Vi) seeking Chosen girls. Seeing as Rona was supposed to be in this one, I'm going to assume the recruiter/trainer girl is Rona.
     
  15. nerd4hire

    nerd4hire Certified Uncloneable

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    In Buffy 5, The Chain, we we see this image.

    [​IMG]

    I think it's significant.

    The image portrays the unknown slayer flashing back along the slayer line. Some of the slayers shown originate in the Dark Horse comic/TPB Tales of the Slayers.

    So the question becomes "Does this automatically transfer canon status to Tales of the Slayers"?

    There's always been a good case for "Tales" as canon. Joss Whedon writes a couple of the stories. Mutant Enemy writers write the other stories. Although, to my knowledge it's never been outright stated Joss was in total charge of the project it was presented in a way that implied Joss's control.

    Personally, I don't have a problem with it. There's nothing in Tales of the Slayers, that really contradicts what we already know about the Buffyverse.

    However, there may be a problem with the precedent of allowing what we see in Buffy 8 to establish canon status on an auxilary work.

    If the same thing happens with Tales of the Vampires some interesting things become canon. As was mentioned previously. Xander spent a year as Dracula's lackey. Vampires can shrink with age. A vampire can walk in the daytime if you replace it's heart with silver.

    What if we see an image of Hellboy in the background, in a future issue of Buffy 8? Does it then become canon the Buffyverse, and the Hellboyverse are connected?

    There's a disturbing entry in Wikipedia concerning the upcoming IDW maxi-series Angel: After the fall. The consensus seems to be that series will be considered canon. The previous IDW Angel comics were not considered canon. Wikipedia tells us a character from the previous non-canon Angel series will appear in the upcoming canon one. They suggest this now transfers canon status to what we previously thought of as non-canon.

    Up until this point, what has always added power to the whole idea of a canon Buffy is the idea Whedon is in control of what is and isn't canon. Is he losing that control? Will the line between what is and isn't canon in the Buffyverse become so fuzzy we can no longer distinquish what Buffy canon is?
     
  16. Edmund Blackadder

    Edmund Blackadder Scooby

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    My thoughts are actually quite simple on this.
    It doesn't matter.
    It doesn't matter what is canon and what is not. Do you enjoy the comics?
    If the answer is 'yes' then thats all that matters.
    I would then, until something truly contradicts something that you have lasting sleepless nights over, simply enjoy it all for what it is.
     
  17. nerd4hire

    nerd4hire Certified Uncloneable

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    And that of course is one guy's opinion.

    For those of us who do find it worthwhile to consider the issues of canon as the Comics affect them, I've been thinking about something.

    I wish there were a way to get the writer's original scripts. Like in the last issue wouldn't it be interesting to know if Joss specifically named Rona as the girl working with the Watcher recruitment arm, or Vi as the girl in the commercial? I'd really like to see something in Joss's hand describing the line of slayers from Tales of the Slayers. I'd like to know for sure if it was Joss, or if it was something Dark Horse added.
     
  18. Edmund Blackadder

    Edmund Blackadder Scooby

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    Which, interestingly, is as valid as an opinion as any other you get here.

    If I read one of the many Buffy novels that have been written and the story is set, say, season 3. By the end of the book Giles is dead, for instance, and there's no resolution to this and its not part of a Trilogy or anything, then I see a major issue.

    The writers of these comics, books and other stuff generally have some knowledge of the shows and maintains quite an accurate(though admittedly not perfect) hold on things, until Whedon or someone else who has 'canon status' makes up some rule or different way of doing something.

    Just class it all as 'Canon' then you can spend alot more of your time doing other things.

    If you come across something that does contradict something else in this, post it here and I'll work a way out of the situation that should make things easier for you.

    I'm here to help:)
     
  19. Black Eye Guy

    Black Eye Guy Taking over the World!

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    Black Thorn
    I think what's Canon and what's not is important. If something is canon it would make it more likely that I'd be interested in it.

    But I don't think including a character from one of the other comics automatically makes that comic canon. Like the character in the Angel comic, if he starts talking about stuff that's in the other comic then it becomes more complicated, but I think we should just take it as a brand new character.

    It seems like Joss is very much in control of the Buffy comic, I say he would have agreed to which slayers go into that pic.

    The Angel comic is more complicated, cuz there's different people saying different things about how canon it?
     
  20. nerd4hire

    nerd4hire Certified Uncloneable

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    And who said it wasn't.

    Here's the way I see it. Joss says canon is important to him. By this we take it to mean he will provide canon stories where the continuity should remain consistent. It doesn't always, but it should. So to us it's black and white. There is such a thing as Buffy canon, and Joss let's us know what is, and isn't.

    Other franchises don't have this attitude. Take Doctor Who for example. You can go to Doctor Who forums and find find Admins getting angry at members for saying stuff like "How can such and such happen here, when back in this episode, radio play, movie, or book this contradictory thing happened." You're just not supposed to notice that sort of thing. They want you to approach Doctor Who pretty much the way you would like us to approach Buffy.

    It's not going to happen with Buffy though. There is a Buffy canon, and the parts within it are supposed to match up. They don't always, (these are called continuity errors) but they're supposed to. It's supposed to be a series of long continuous stories where one thing affects another within the Buffy/Angelverse.