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Did Angel do a good thing letting Darla and Drusilla have a killing spree??

Discussion in 'Season 2' started by Joshua, Jan 29, 2012.

  1. Xin Rong

    Xin Rong Killed by Dissertation

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    Whether it was a right or wrong decision, in moral terms, has an easy answer. It was wrong!

    However, the consequences of his actions would have most likely been positive.

    Depends on how you view right and right, categorical moral codes vs consequentialist
     
  2. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    The important part of the story is not who was killed but who survived. Lindsey and Lilah are the ones who make it out and this marks them as something special - Darla and Drusilla are willing to spare them for a reason.
     
  3. itssmiletime

    itssmiletime Potential

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    It was wrong, and what it ended up doing was making Darla considerably stronger, as when Darla was freshly vamped, to have that much blood made her instantly, so much stronger)

    Also, who says that everyone in that room were lawyers? In types of parties like that, people bring wives and husbands. Did they deserve to die too?

    What Angel did was flat out wrong. He did contribute to the massacre, by locking the door.

    In terms of morality, yeah no question, wrong. Angel was already sending a message to W&H, and in terms of consequentialist, well, W&H resources are unlimited. It didn't do much in the long term, as they could just get a brand new staff within minutes, sign away all their souls. In Angel's low mood in S2, the best thing he did would be to destroy the senior partner.

    To me, he was so caught up in W&H that he really hurt Anne Steele, Cordelia, Wesley and Gunn. All four of those individuals pride themselves on their sense on morality, they have a strong sense of right and wrong, a desire to help people. In Blood Money, he was so stupid, took massive risks, humiliated Anne, struggled to comprehend that when you are running a shelter, 5% of a W&H fundraiser is actually, to her, quite alot. (the ethics of that discussion is for another time, however)

    In Shells, Angel says that he would protect Knox's life, and well, Knox just played a massive role in quite possibly the most degrading death and complete destruction of an innocent (Fred, oh boy, here comes the tears) in the Buffyverse) I guess you could interpret that as an acknowledgement of guilt. He obviously didn't care about Knox, but as someone who prides himself on being a protector, a warrior of the people, he knew it was his role. So with that attitude, he would have definately defended the lawyers, yet if they happened to die, he wouldn't care.

    In short, I don't think anything good came out of Angel's low mood in S2. The best thing would be either to kill the senior partner or split the Drusilla / Darla duo (he couldn't bring himself to kill both of them, so he just sets them on fire). He send a loud message, yes, but it wasn't a good thing, or an effective thing for that matter.
     
  4. Kean

    Kean Professional Bangel

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    Sineya
    What Angel did that night was the complete antithesis to the personal and professional code he had set out for himself: saving souls. There is no good to be found in his actions. Yes, there was extenuating circumstance and W&H were manipulating him mentally and emotionally but I believe he still knew right from wrong. Even if those lawyers, just by being W&H employees, open themselves to the ultimate consequences, I don't believe Angel is the person who gets to make that call. To me, what he did and/or didn't do that night was indefensibly wrong.
     
  5. Doppelgang

    Doppelgang Always Believe

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    This shocked me first time round when it first aired. I remember it very specifically. So just having rewatched it a few days ago, I was looking closely to see what it was that shocked me so much. And it was not just the cold uncaring angelus reappearing if just for a moment. But the way the scene is set up as this underground shelter, and then Angel closes the doors and traps them all in there. Its quite a horrific thing really, when you think about it, if any normal souled person were to act in this way.

    This was a wrong thing for Angel to do in my mind as he was just beginning to get on a good path, but here he gave in to and reacted to the provocations of the evil people, demons, and forces around him. He gave in to an urge to exact personal retribution, and his mind was not at all at this point focused on the larger picture of justice and what is right. This was an impulsive Angel, rather than an Angel thinking things through, and as such was a lapse on his own path.

    Nevertheless, wrong as it was, you can see why it would happen in the circumstances, with Darla messing with him and wolfram and hart being naive about what vampires are capable of and almost mocking Angel at this time about the fact he couldn't hurt them. And it made for good entertainment value and added an extra layer of darkness at this point, to the Angel show.
     
  6. Blaze

    Blaze Let it Burn

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    Black Thorn
    If you're a utilitarian, it can be debated that it was right.

    Aside from that, it was pretty much wrong any way you want to put it. It's like Willow killing Warren, the guy deserved it, but the act was still wrong. Am I happy he did it, sure I am because it made him a more layered character. I love this scene.
     
  7. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Absolutely not.

    Nobody should ever be forcibly locked in a room with a bunch of lawyers...that way lies darkness.

    But the lawyers ended up dead, so there's a bright side. :)


    Seriously though vampires killing humans is a bad thing, anybody actively assisting it is complicit in the bad thing- what Angel did was wrong, and in the end he comes to realise that.
     
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  8. Taake

    Taake Bella Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    A good thing? Certainly not. It was a very, very bad thing to do (regardless of the moral questionability of the lawyers in the room).

    But it was a very good way for the demonstration of where Angel was mentally, which is to say in a very, very dark place.
     
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  9. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Also I do recall that Cordelia was sent visions by the PtB specifically to keep Angel AWAY from Darla and Dru, so I'm pretty sure that the massacre at Manner's place would've happened anyway, even if Angel hadn't been there.

    Would some more lawyers have survived if Angel hadn't locked those doors? Maybe, but Darla and Dru were very intent on a bloody massacre- any which way you slice it. Angel could've stopped it but he didn't cause it.
     
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  10. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Exactly. Everyone was complicit in the bad thing, so Angel locked Frankenstein in the same room with his monster and they them hash it out together. They brought Darla back, went and hunted down Dru. They were complicit in every death that those two committed. So, Angel made sure they paid.
     
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  11. VisionBoy

    VisionBoy Scooby

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    Sineya
    It was a bad thing, absolutely. But one thing I like about ATS is that I don't think they ever denied that or tried to gloss over it.
    It's a while since I watched season 2, but as far as I remember, it was pretty unanimous that what Angel did was terrible.
    I'm sure some people thought "It's Wolfram and Hart, they had it coming", but I don't think that viewpoint ever came across in the show (that I recall).
     
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  12. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Definitely completely evil and wrong - but damn I love that scene! However, it proved one thing - contrary to popular belief those lawyers were human....except maybe Lilah and Lindsay.
     
  13. Wesley Pryce

    Wesley Pryce Angel Investigations

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    Black Thorn
    I'm rewatching seaosn 2 now (and loving it) and yes you are correct. The team (Wes cordy and Gunn) all scolded Angel for what he did. Kate also didn't want anything to do with Angel after she found out that someone locked them inside the wine cellar. And Angel seemed to realize that his actions were ill concieved at least after the Epiphany.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 17, 2015, Original Post Date: Mar 17, 2015 ---
    As for whether Angel was right or not...no he wasn't right for what he did, BUT that isn't quite the point. ATS didn't make the world a simpler black and white place just to make the hero have an easier time navigating through the world. It was meant to show the hero's frustration with getting justice from POWERFUL "untouchable" villains. Also it was an amplification and punctuation of his obsession with Darla, redemption and Wolfram and Hart. My point being that what he did was morally repugnant but we can grasp what he is going through mentally, psychologically and emotionally and can therefore understand somewhat although we do not condone it. It is gray, like much of Angel the character and Angel the series too.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 17, 2015 ---
    Angel: I've done things....questionable things
    Lorne: Yes..you have!
     
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  14. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    Whether it was right or wrong I guess depends on each individual person. I personally have no issues with what he did. I don't draw the line at human/non-human, I draw the line at evil/non-evil. If someone is out to hurt other people I don't care whether that someone is human, demon or alien.

    In a way it does nothing but promote racismn. Here you have a group of mostly humans trying to destroy humanity but it's not ok to take action against them because they are humans, no other reason. However it's fine to slice and dice their demonic agents (who in some cases can be less evil) because...they are a different race? What's so great about humans that you can't even touch the most evil of them? If you make it your job to save the world, protect the innocent or whatever it shouldn't matter what species is doing the hurting, only that they do it.
     
    bespangeled: I feel that way - should have thought of that!
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  15. jom

    jom Potential

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    i kind of agree with you. they brought the whole thing on themselves. You can argue that maybe some of those lawyers could had escaped if Angel hadnt closed those doors and you might be right, but holland manners really irked Angel earlier in that episode with his cant seem to care about the innocents darla and dru would killed, Angel payed him back. It was a great comeuppance.
     
  16. VisionBoy

    VisionBoy Scooby

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    Sineya
    See for me, it's less about species of the victim/ who the victim was and more about why Angel let it happen; what was in his heart at the time (corny as that may sound).
    Sure W&H hurt people and letting a bunch of them die could arguably save some innocent people, but I don't believe that's honestly why Angel did it. He wasn't looking to save people in that moment, he saw an opportunity for revenge. This, in my eyes, is why Angel crossed a line. It wasn't for the greater good and he knew it.

    Did I feel bad for Holland and co.? No, not really. But I can understand why Cordy, Wes and Gunn were so concerned/shocked.
     
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  17. Smile Time

    Smile Time The Scattered One

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    Sineya
    Honestly, I think that Darla and Dru would have gone on a killing spree anyways, regardless of Angel's involvement.

    However, I do think that Angel's actions were basically sinking to W&H's level.
     
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  18. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    The scene from "Reunion 2X10" is:

    Holland: "Angel - please. - People are going to die."
    Angel: "And yet, somehow, I just can't seem to care."
    Holland watches wide-eyed as Angel shuts the double doors on them. Darla turns to caress Holland with a big smile on her face.
    Holland: "Angel? P-please we can negotiate. We..."
    Angel slides the lock on the door shut.

    Angel would probably read your reply and say, "And yet, somehow, I just can't seem to care."
     
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  19. janas

    janas Bangel in the soul

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    The previous scene from "Reunion 2X10

    Holland: Oh, Darla's just a tool. Means to an end. (Security guards file in and surround Angel) You're the project.
    Angel: I can crush the life out of you before they even lift a finger.
    Holland: Oh, I'm sure you can. Just as sure as I am that you won't.
    Angel: Won't I?
    Holland: You don't kill humans.
    Angel: You don't qualify. You set things in motion, play your little games up here in your glass and chrome tower, and people die - innocent people.
    Holland: And yet I just can't seem to care. But you do. And while you're making threats, wasting time, crashing through windows, your girls are out painting the town red, red, red.


    And before that:

    Darla: (opens the phone) Hello, Holland.
    Holland: (On phone) Darla. Feeling better I trust?
    Darla: Like my old self again.
    Holland: Splendid. I understand you girls have been on a little spree.
    Darla: Hmm, is that a problem?
    Holland: Oh, on the contrary (We see Darla looking down at the drained body of a woman) As a matter of fact, I was just thinking - why settle for a spree, when you could have - a - say - a massacre?


    Well, after all, he obtained what he wanted. A massacre.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2015
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  20. Anyanka Bunny Killer

    Anyanka Bunny Killer "I got these evil hand issues..."

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    Black Thorn
    W & H were responsible for bringing Darla & Dru to Los Angeles; and I think Angel was completely right to let the vamps eat the lawyers.