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Did Buffy have the right to call into question Angel's love?

Discussion in 'Season 3' started by Forever Slayer, Jun 27, 2016.

  1. Forever Slayer

    Forever Slayer Never felt so good

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    One thing that really bugged me about season 3 was how Buffy doubted Angel's love for her.

    I mean come on. Did Buffy suddenly become brain dead here? As Angel, he showed nothing but absolute love and loyalty for Buffy.

    I'm not sure why that was even thrown in there.
     
  2. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    It's been awhile since I watched Season 3, but, as I recall, Angel was pretty much trying to chill things a bit with Buffy, mainly because of the curs, and what could happen if Angelus got loose again, but also because he knew that things were pretty much never going to be again like they were in Season 1 and the beginning of Season 2. The innocence, for want of a better word, was no longer there, and while he might have been able to handle a more adult relationship with Buffy, even without the element of sex involved, he didn't think that Buffy was, or should be, ready to rush into adulthood quite yet.

    Angel was bushing Buffy away, not just for her own good, but for his own as well. It was beginning to dawn on him that bad things were too likely to happen if he and Buffy were in too close proximity for extended lengths of time. Short visits, maybe, but always run away before things got too hot.

    Buffy loved Angel, and Angel loved Buffy. No one could really argue that point. Unfortunately, it is just an inarguable fact that, with things as they stood during Season 3, and still stand even in Season 10, the only thing that can come of them being together is disaster, quite likely of a global magnitude.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but as of this moment in Season 10. it looks like ol' Broody has just about accepted the fact that they aren't viable anytime in the near future, barring major changes.
     
  3. GoSpuffy

    GoSpuffy Vampire Lover, I mean Slayer

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    Black Thorn
    This is how I see it. Sometimes people love each other but are not meant to be together. It wasn't enough for Riley to be missions boyfriend and Buffy and Angel couldn't put their personal missions aside for a mutual relationship. They both need a partner who makes them better and doesn't get in the way of their callings. Hard to find that in the real world let alone if you're a slayer or a vampire with a soul on a journey of redemption.
     
  4. Forever Slayer

    Forever Slayer Never felt so good

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    What got me was the fact that Buffy thought there could have been something going on with Angel and Faith.

    Also I couldn't believe how quickly Buffy slept with Parker Abrahms in season 4.
     
  5. Bluebird

    Bluebird two by two, hands of blue

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    Black Thorn
    I've not really thought about it. I don't think Buffy did anything wrong or anything I didn't have empathy for, with her relationship with Angel. As for Buffy feeling uneasy with Faith, Angel is the petty one when it comes to jealousy, he was jealous over Xander, Ford, and even Scott when he came back.

    But then I don't think either of them was out of line. Angel was/is emotionally damaged and Buffy was still a teenager.
     
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  6. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Scooby

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    Sineya
    It has less to do with Angel and more to do with Faith and Buffy's strained relationship. Buffy's self esteem isn't always perfect either and Faith is a bit like Cordelia in the way that they're both seen as desirable. I don't think Buffy doubts Angel's love per se, she doubts herself more. For example, she expressed her concerns that Angel wouldn't like her if she weren't the slayer. She was also jealous of Cordy though Angel was very obviously not interested in her. But, again, Buffy saw Cordelia as the person she wanted to be - popular, beautiful, normal - and naturally assumed that Angel would want that too. It's just insecurity really. If you remember the dialogue in Lover's Walk: "Buffy: We're not friends. Never were. I can fool Giles, I can fool my friends, but I can't fool myself. Or Spike, for some reason. What I want from you, I can never have. You don't need me to take care of you any more, so I'm gonna go. (...) Angel: There must be some way we can still see each other. Buffy: There is. Just tell me you don't love me." If Buffy were thinking rationally, she fully believed Angel loved her. However, the situation with Faith left her more fragile.

    The writers also wanted to put Buffy and Faith further at odds with Angel being the reason. Just like the Mayor's Achilles heel was Faith, Buffy's was Angel. And Faith knew it. Faith attacks Buffy with Angel first in Enemies and then in Graduation Day. Buffy deciding to kill Faith has to do a bit with her constantly going after Angel and trying to sabotage their relationship.

    Well, Buffy associates being normal with dating. Always has and always will. When Buffy comes back to school in season 3, she eventually starts dating Scott just to get over Angel. In season 4, she's more aggressive with going back to dating, but that can be explained by the fact that she's not mourning Angel's death - he left her, so it's different.
    The problem is that Buffy came out of that situation an idiot. Parker was fake, conceited and boring. If Buffy wanted to move on, why not pick a decent, genuine guy? Worst of all is that after sleeping with him, she spends weeks moping! It's beyond irritating. Buffy recovers faster than that. And her attempts at making amends with him were pathetic and a bit out of character.

    Hope this helped answering your question :)
     
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  7. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    I just think when you are a emotional teenager like Buffy than it is hard to see than Angel's actions were being done in her best interests.
     
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  8. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Buffy always struggled with self-esteem. Like she said in 'Chosen': "I always thought there was something wrong with me, because I couldn't make it work". And I can totally see how she would feel that way, after the events of season 2. I mean, jesus, that conversation with Angelus in 'Innocence'?! When he implies she's a whore and insults her "prowess" at the same time? That kind of thing would scar ANYONE for life. Buffy is afraid that Angel would prefer Faith because she's afraid she isn't good enough.

    I think she did that as a way of proving to herself that she can move on, and that she's over the breakup with Angel. And of course, it backfired, because Parker treated her almost exactly like Angelus in the day after... Which is why she took it so hard, and had trouble moving on from it.
     
  9. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    I've seen the argument, and the Fuffy shippers are going to love this, that it wasn't just Buffy being jealous of Faith being with her boyfriend, it was also Buffy being jealous of Angel being with her girlfriend, but she either didn't realize it, or was in denial of it, the same way that she was of her feelings for Spike later. Add to that. the fact that she almost certainly deluded herself that she had any real feelings for Riley in Season 4, mostly because she wanted to prove to herself that she actually could have a relationship with a more or less normal human, and what we have is pretty much exactly what Buffy was in the first few Seasons of the series, possibly on through her second death in Season 5, which was, basically, a teenage girl who hasn't figured out what real love is, and was looking for it in all the wrong places.

    Luckily, in Season 6, Joan and Randy finally taught her what love really is. Jandy made everything right, finally.
     
  10. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    What did Buffy say to Angel in AtS Sanctuary?

    Buffy: 'I have someone in my life now. That I love. It's not what you and I had- its very new. You know what makes it new? I trust him. I know him.'

    Seems clear to me that Buffy never really trusted Angel around Faith because- and this is evident in the very episode I quoted- Angel feels some empathy for Faith that Buffy does not and will never understand.
    She's still kinda jealous of them in S7 when she hears that Faith was in Angel's memories.

    As to the why Buffy feels this way she articulates some of it to Willow in 'Enemies' they have something in common and again questions Angel in 'Earshot'. While Angel's answers satisfy- he dismisses Faith as simply another bad girl- the feelings clearly don't go away.
    Faith is a slayer, she and Angel are both 'murderers' in a club together -as Buffy puts it-and she's attractive, interesting and will do pretty much anything for Angel.

    I'm actually of the opinion that if Angel & Faith did get together in the comics Buffy would be deeply, royally pissed off, even in her current position.
     
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  11. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    If she got jealous over Xander & Dawn, she'd certainly get jealous over Angel and anybody...
     
  12. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Except that Buffy is clealy over Angel come S5 of Angel. It seems to be him who has lingering feelings for her if anything. I think Buffy is more concerned about getting Faith back for what she did to her in This Year's Girl and Who Are You? rather than any jeoulasy.
     
  13. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    Well since she was never into Xander and still feels jealous about him, I don't think feelings are a prerequisite.

    Though, to be fair, there's plenty that happens in Season 8 and beyond that says Buffy is not clearly over Angel...
     
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  14. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Well no spoilers because I've not read the comics but I assumed you meant that Buffy was protective of Dawn because it being her sister.

    Not sure I fancy the comics. Just seem to be going backwards. Why would Buffy still be hung up on Angel after all this time?:confused:
     
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  15. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    Because she's always going to have feelings for him. You don't have that kind of relationship with someone and then one day just stop caring.
     
  16. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Uh... is she? I think that's kinda left open to interpretation...
     
  17. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    What even when she's 50 or 60?:eek: Besides there's a difference with whats good for logic and whats good for the story. What's good for the story is for her to move on from Angel. Also, her caring about him is one thing, but I don't buy that she should would still hate the thought of anyone else being with him. That just makes her look imature.
     
    Buffy Summers: Ye, even when she's 50 or 60, she will still care about Angel.
  18. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Buffy to Angel: 'You have my heart...' seems fairly explicit to me (in terms of emotion, not content). In S8 she still wants to be with him, but can't. In no stretch 'over him' completely.
    So yeah, I think that- given all that history- she'd get righteously bitchy if Fangel happened (not that it ever should).
     
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  19. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    But she was kinda-sorta mind controlled at that point. Or possibly still suffering the after-effects of mind-control. I mean, it's entirely possible that she meant it, but when I read that part, I assumed that was still part of the mind-control thing.
     
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  20. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    Again, if she gets jealous over XANDER she's going to get jealous over ANGEL. It doesn't mean she wants to be with him, but it means she has a propensity to be jealous about the men in her life.

    But let's get off this tangent and back on the topic. If you want to discuss whether Buffy still has feelings for Angel please feel free to start a new thread.
     
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