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Did Buffy have the right to call into question Angel's love?

Discussion in 'Season 3' started by Forever Slayer, Jun 27, 2016.

  1. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Angel is Buffy's first "real" love, and he is the standard by which she will measure every new love for the rest of her life. She will always love him, even though she may no longer be IN LOVE with him. Not even the most staunch Spuffy, Briley, Fuffy, or any other ship supporter can deny that. It's practically part of her DNA.

    That doesn't mean that she will never be able to love anyone else


    Not only will she always have feelings for him, she might even wind up making him what Xander referred to as the "long haul guy" eventually. The possibility can't be ruled out, but I wouldn't bet my pension on it.
     
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  2. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    All that maybe true and I agree with it. But then you know that old Spikey offers Buff something so much more real, honest and interesting than Old Mr. Broody ever could:p
     
  3. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    Whoa, hold on. Is that a deleted scene or unreleased episode or something? Because I don't remember Buffy being in S5 AtS at all. Buff was only ever mentioned in S5, not seen ('Buffy' in TGiQ doesn't count because we don't actually see her, could be anyone on the dance floor). Can you point me to the the scene/episode please because that I very much would like to see.

    As to the topic. I don't put much stock into it. Buffy always feels betrayed when someone goes against her, sides with someone else over her, prioritizes someone else over her etc. just so she can doubt their feelings to enforce her martyr status and 'being alone'.
     
  4. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    I would say he's real and honest in season 6, though it's not something you want to offer anyone. As for season 7 and 10, it's just Spike going along with Buffy, not very interesting. Also, Buffy wants a normal life, that's something real Spike can't offer her. Spuffy at this point is so pointless and doomed, that real, honest and interesting perfectly describes the opposite of the relationship they're having imo. Bangel was much more real, honest, interesting. There was no misunderstanding between what they felt for each other, what they wanted and the problems with their relationship. Can't say the same for Spuffy.

    I definitively agree with that. She wouldn't handle jealousy the way Angel did. There's still a lot of mistrust and hurt between Faith and Buffy, particularly when it concerns Angel. I don't believe she'd speak with either of them for a long while. Angel can't be with Buffy but he can be with Faith? Faith wins again. Rational or not, she would probably think this.

    Buffy's a jealous person and the jealousy is 100 times worse with Angel. In season 6 (Flooded) Willow tries to get Buffy mad like this:

    WILLOW
    Okay - let me make you mad again. Ready? Um, um ...(bingo) Last semester? I slept with Riley.

    She raises her eyebrows hopefully. Buffy just stares at her incredulously.

    BUFFY
    And you know I really doubt it.

    WILLOW
    Caught me. Big fib. (inspired) ... To cover up my sleazy affair with Angel.

    BUFFY
    Will, what the hell are you doing?

    WILLOW
    Pissing you off.

    It sort of works, though it's a complete lie. It's not surprising Buffy's afraid that Angel wants Faith when he saw the two of them looking cozy together. Even an obvious lie affects her a bit, years after they were together. And Buffy was definitely jealous of Faith for having been in Angel's mind.
     
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  5. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    I agree with this so much. Dog-like devotion does not an interesting, honest, challenging couple make.

    And the jealousy does/did come from a real place, even though to most fans (I believe) like Angel/Faith as a platonic friendship with no romantic overtones nowadays.
    I do wonder how Buffy would feel about Angel/Cordelia happening if she ever found out. Would she get it having felt that jealousy way back in S2, or would she understand?
     
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  6. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    I really don't want Faith and Angel's awesome friendship to turn to romance. They're really incompatible. Faith doesn't need a complicated relationship, the only kind Angel could offer her, and Angel doesn't need another failed slayer/vampire romance. I don't believe Faith was ever really interested in Angel, not even in a sexual way (Xander is more her type there). She wanted what Buffy had and Buffy's jealousy does come from something real, but not because of Angel who was never in any way interested in Faith.

    If Buffy found out about Cordy her reaction would be worse than during S2. In her mind, her suspicions would have been confirmed, though we know there was nothing going on between Angel and Cordy at that time.
    I don't think she'd understand. Even Saint Cordy in S3 didn't like Buffy after she died and came back from the dead :p I'm sure Buffy would hate Cordy. Angel wants Buffy to be happy and have love, he told her so a lot of times. Buffy never implied that. I mean, she loves him so I assume she wants him to be happy, but I don't think she ever thought about how lonely he is. Buffy probably wouldn't really get why Angel could be with Cordy and not with Buffy (I don't get it either), though she might accept it.
     
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  7. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    I was referring to I think the episode is The Girl in Question where Buffy has gone off with the demon and clearly gotten over both Angel and Spike. But I agree that in some way or another she will always have feelings for Angel.
     
  8. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    It makes the one with the dog-like devotion look so damn pathetic. Like dude, do you even have a mind of your own? Not to mention it's extremely unhealthy for both parties.

    They better never make Angel/Faith romantic or even sexual. They are like the best male/female friendship ever on either show. Leave them be. *glares at Joss*

    To quote Buffy: 'I don't care what happened in LA.' Buffy has never been interested in Angel's life post him leaving Sunnyhell. Except of course when it comes to any female near him she feels entitled to flip her lid, especially if she learns about it after the fact.

    a) The comics retconned that episode and they are supposedly canon right?
    b) We only see a blonde on the dance floor who could be anyone. And the only info we get doesn't even come from Buffy, it comes from freaking Andrew. Consider the source here.
     
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  9. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    You know, this little "Bangel vs Spuffy" argument got me wondering... And I think I realized something - Buffy's relationships with Angel and Spike reperesented what Buffy FEARED and NEEDED at the time of each relationship.

    In the first 3 seasons of the show, Buffy was very romantic, and very emotional, and always wanted to have a normal life ("Clark Kent has a job. I just wanna go on a date"), but she FEARED and NEEDED TO ACCEPT her role as the slayer and let go of her emotional romanticism ("As the slayer, you don't have the luxury of being a slave to your passions"). And surprisingly or un-surprisingly, her main love interest in those seasons was Angel, who was INCAPABLE of a normal life ("I'll never be a kid"), and was a practical slayer himself, and was completely devoted to the good fight. He was everything Buffy feared, and everything she didn't want, which was also everything she needed to accept.

    In the LAST 3 seasons of the show, Buffy was a completely different person. Her horribly painful life as the slayer had turned her into a cold, realistic, dutiful, practical person, who was AFRAID of romance and love due to her painful life experience ("I don't need a guy right now. I need me. I need to get comfortable being alone with Buffy"), and this time what she needed to accept was precisely what she needed to abandon in the first 3 seasons - her romanticism, her love, her human emotions ("Love is pain, and the Slayer forges strength from pain. Love. Give. Forgive. Risk the pain. It is your nature"). And her main love interest in those seasons was Spike, who represents all those human emotions she abandoned and now needed, romanticism, idealism, love ("I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it"). In season 5-7, Spike represented everything Buffy feared, and everything she didn't want, which was also everything she needed to accept. Just like Angel in seasons 1-3, but opposite, because Buffy herself was now the opposite of who she was back then.

    Err.... I think.
     
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  10. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    a) Fair enough.
    b) No but Angel and Spike are told at some point that Buffy has gone off with the demon if I'm remembering the episode correctly. Even so I think its clear than that is supposed to be Buffy.

    I think the point is that I don't think Buffy would be still hung up on Angel at this point stage. But I do agree that she will always have feelings for him on some level.
     
  11. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    Only that their 'friend' had gone off with the Immortal. Buffy and the Immortal frequence the place so much the bartender doesn't even know her name? Seems extremely weird to me. I know what Joss Whedon said about the purpose of the episode. Which was that Buffy had moved on from both of them so maybe they should finally move on from her. But I don't take his word for the gospel truth. He has a tendency to go back on things he does/says anyway (see the TGiQ retcon in the comics).

    Think the comics would disagree with you there. Buffy plainly said how she felt in S8. Of course considering the development in S10 I have no clue which is truth and lie when it comes to Buffy. And I don't really care either way.
     
  12. Stoney

    Stoney Spiked!

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    Spike hardly had dog like devotion when he stayed away from Buffy in AtS 5 because he wanted to find a way to become his own kind of hero. He didn't actually return to her until the back end of S8 and then he left again. When he returned and Buffy asked if he was 'home' now he still stayed on the outskirts of her life again through to S9 when he realised that wasn't what he wanted to do any longer. He left and decided that he wasn't going to hang his happiness on one person, it wasn't fair to do that. When he returned later it was for Dawn, because she was fading and she mattered to him. He'd decided when away that he also wanted to try to 'belong' more generally with the people that he cared about most, not live in the dark in basements or be on the outskirts any longer. A new, positive and progressive direction for him. It naturally resulted then in him and Buffy being in a far better place where they are building something again from the close friendship and working relationship they were developing. I know Spuffy isn't what a lot of people like/want, but imo it is far past time for Buffy to be saying she wants to be with someone and just putting her lot in to really give it a go for the here and now and to see if any of the problems they have, or find they have, are greater than all the good that they both see in their relationship.
     
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  13. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Well in that case then the comics lack a logic which is in the television show IMO. Buffy and Angel brokeup at the end of S3 of Buffy. I am willing to admit that maybe for the next few seasons there maybe feelings from Buffy still. But its too far fetched to buy that she would still have those feelings now. If the comics suggest that she does then frankly I think that makes Buffy look weak as a character. The kiss between her and Angel in S7 was a misstep for me. It felt like an excuse just to have him in the final rather than because it made sense.
     
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  14. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    It wasn't Buffy in the Girl in Question - it was a double meant to hide the Slayer's true whereabouts.

    But even if it was Buffy - Angel had things with Nina, Darla (sort of), Cordy - doesn't mean he's over Buffy.
     
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  15. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    But over in what sense? If you mean over as in they will both always have some sort of feelings for the other one, then I agree. But if you mean romantic feelings then I have an issue with that. If they still have romantic feelings for one another at that stage, then to me its poor writting and makes both characters look weak. Besides for the sake of the plot and characters it made sense to move on.
     
  16. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    I'm saying enough feelings to feel jealousy seeing an ex with someone else. The same thing I've been saying this whole time lol
     
  17. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    This is one of those relationships like Bergman's "Scenes from a Marriage" where a couple is married, they divorce, they each remarry someone else but still yearn for each other. It is very powerful dramatically but it shows bad judgement on Buffy's part (although Angel's decision to leave Buffy is one of his few good decisions, even though Joyce pushed him into it the first time and he made the same decision the second time in "I Will Remember You"). Is there any question of love? No, it is real. Does Buffy have the right to question it? Of course she does. But it doesn't change the answer.
     
    Mr Trick: Nice movie reference!
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  18. BuffyBot22

    BuffyBot22 Potential

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    I can totally see how she thought something may have been going on. Faith had basically made it her mission to drive a wedge between Angel and Buffy and she was doing a decent job at it. I know Angel loves Buffy and only Buffy at this point in the show, but he and Faith had things in common (a dark side, which Buffy doesn't really have until s6). Buffy feels like they can relate to one another and not to mention that Faith is hot, and regardless of Angel's curse, he is still a man with eyes who could possibly have sex with Faith and not lose his soul since he wasn't in love with her. I know he wouldn't do that, you all know he wouldn't do that, but as a teenage girl dating an older man she can't/won't sleep with I can totally see how she was concerned.


    As for Parker- she went an entire summer as far as the audience knows completely single and sex free lol. Then she meets Parker and just wants to be normal. She definitely jumped into the sac too soon, but I think it made perfect sense because of her longing for a normal existence- which includes sex and relationships.


    When I first watched her moping over him, I was utterly disgusted and irritated. But, I think her moping had more to do with Angel and his abandonment than it had to do with Parker. The first man she sleeps with literally goes full on evil and makes it his mission to torment her and her friends/family. So when she sleeps with Parker and he doesn't call her, it brings up all these past emotions of Angel turning into Angelus after sex. This makes her feel like she just can't ever get it right even with a normal human. All those residual feelings of self-doubt and pain are brought back to the surface. So I think this pathetic moping has way more to do with Angel than it ever had to do with Parker.
     
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  19. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Actually Spike stayed away simply because he thought it would be anti-climactic for him to just 'show up' in Buffy's life after his dramatic exit.

    But then when he gets the opportunity to have a dramatic entrance in S8 he waits for just the right moment and then pops up with the 'dramatic exposition' or whatever. He was surprised about Buffy's 'reaction' to Twilight (we all were I guess) but it doesn't negate the fact that he appearance was entirely calculated.

    The he stalks Buffy from the shadows for a good while in S9, finally claiming that he can be 'what Buffy needs' when Buffy finally twigs that he's still in love with her. The he leaves, hits on anything going, and ends up using Harmony to make himself feel better.

    Dawn mattered to soulless Spike (for about half of S5 and a bit of S6) but there was not a hint in S7 that there was any warmth between them. The same for the most of S9. Basically Spike might've 'come back' for Dawn but as always he stayed for Buffy because he refused to move on from her.

    And the final proof of his lack of spine when it came to Buffy was the end of S10, where she treated him horribly (throwing Angel in his face was particularly low) and he just stands there and takes it, not sticking up for himself at all really.

    Over in the sense that Angel and Buffy never got to end their romantic relationship naturally. It was stuck on the the whole curse/vampire thing, that meant that their relationship couldn't fully evolve to a natural end. It's it's always (and remained) a 'maybe' to both of them. Something just out of reach because of circumstance.
    What would happen if Angel found a way to break the curse but still have a soul? For example. What would Buffy think about that if she thought she could have it? On the evidence of S8 and Twilight its still very tempting prospect for her, perhaps an overly idealized one at that.

    But to me the Bangel thing wouldn't work anyway, they both have their missions that are bigger than they are, the world is always going to need saving so its best if they remain apart.
     
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  20. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    You're right and I totally understand that, but the writers undercut the point of Parker by: picking a guy like Parker, instead of someone the audience could take more seriously, not allowing Buffy to be a very sympathetic character, not allowing Buffy to express her feelings. The fact that most people watching the Parker thing for the first time react with disgust and irritation means that the writers failed in communicating whatever they wanted to communicate. Buffy is a smart girl. I can understand that she would fall for Parker's bull, but she's the kind of person who would react with more anger and less moping. The writers stretched credulity by making a mockery of the situation. I just think the whole debacle was poorly written. It required a more serious tone if the audience were to understand Buffy's side and how it all goes back to Angel. The part of the script that mentioned him was actually cut out! It's unbelievable how the writers thought that part wasn't worth mentioning.