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Did the Scooby gang ever really forgive Willow for Darth Rosenberg?

Discussion in 'Season 7' started by Joshua, Nov 4, 2016.

  1. Joshua

    Joshua Huge Spuffy Fan!

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    I mean Willow was literally gonna turn Dawn back into the Key again in the Season 6 finale before Buffy stopped her, and Willow nearly killed Anya and Buffy.

    Did they ever really forgive Willow?
     
  2. brinkster130

    brinkster130 Riley's BFF Staff Member

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    Sineya
    The scoobies are a pretty forgiving group. So yeah, I think they did forgive her. But that doesn't mean they forgot about it; they are all very aware of the power she has and her ability to do bad things.
     
  3. Priceless

    Priceless You're my dog, y'know?

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    Willow is Buffy and Xander's best friend, of course they forgave her. There were extenuating circumstances; they understood the devastating effect Tara's death had on Willow and they only felt compasssion for her.
     
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  4. Professor Walsh

    Professor Walsh Feminist slayerette

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    Black Thorn
    Did they forgive? Yes, I think they did. Did they forget? No.
     
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  5. sosa lola

    sosa lola Scooby

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    I remember Dawn being quite wary of Willow in the episode she returned to Sunnydale. But right after that episode she was okay with her back.
     
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  6. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Yeah they forgave Willow because- despite all the bad she did- they understood the why of it. If you can understand and empathize the reasoning then fogiveness becomes easier.

    I would say that Xander forgave Willow utterly and absolutely (because best friend and also he 'turned her back' if you like) but with Buffy there was always a question mark. She forgave Willow but she didn't forget.
     
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  7. Scooby Corps

    Scooby Corps Fly! Be free, little bird, you defy category!

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    I love Dawn (& Anya) re:Willow in Same Time, Same Place because she used her brain and operated from a presumption of innocence position whereas Buffy did the opposite.

    I think Dawn and Xander forgave Willow rather quickly and Giles didn't need to forgive her (in his POV, not that he didn't have justified reasons to be angry) in the first place because of his past failures of neglect and exploitation. However, taking Willow to England is a mix of caring (empowering her) and cold pragmatism (weaponizing her), so there's that.

    Buffy took the longest. I'd say when she had to kill Future Dark Willow (and realized that the license to kill, Willow had given her in STSP, actually sucked) was the time when Buffy came to truly forgive Willow and truly love her again. Before that moment, S07 & 08 Buffy is frequently suspicious, angry and callous to Willow while their more playful moments in S07 seem incredibly fake (while in S08, it's Buffy slowly opening her heart again until the climax in Time Of Your Life). However, until Buffy, and now Willow too (in S10 as representatives of Christos Gage), stop bashing life and think that an isolation chamber of dopamin-inflicted stupor, semi-consciousness, and utter inactivity is the preferable option for girls in their early twenties (because according to Gage, Buffy's "heaven" is taken as fact applied to everyone now), the resurrection (Buffy's other source for resentments) will remain a rift between Buffy and Willow, a source for Buffy's martyr-like self-pity, and a source for Willow's ill-advised self-loathing.
     
    WillowFromBuffy: I think I needed to her Buffy say "Thank you for bringing me back" almost as much as Buffy did. I am so sad I did not get to see them become best friends again.
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  8. YummySushiPJs

    YummySushiPJs Scooby

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    It's interesting that Willow didn't feel enough guilt over hurting Anya that she could still see her in STSP, considering she hurt Anya numerous times (more than any of the others actually, except maybe Giles).
     
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  9. Scooby Corps

    Scooby Corps Fly! Be free, little bird, you defy category!

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    I think it has to do with Anya trying to get Willow killed in Doppelgangland or because Anya tried to trick Willow into wishing nastiness on Xander or because Anya chose to be a vengeance demon again in the first place. Or that Anya expressed zero guilt for anything of that. However, she was guilty (with some UST, I love the Willow/Anya in STSP) to Anya in STSP, mainly over the Magic Box what hurt Anya the most. It wasn't just enough to make her invisible to Anya because Willow doesn't love Anya as she loves Buffy/Xander/Dawn and Willow doesn't rank Anya's opinion about herself very high (which is mutual). Willow stunned Anya once and knocked her out twice. She almost killed Giles, had a serious fist-fight with Buffy, threatened to turn Dawn back into energy, and injured Xander with several cuts. Also, she made up for it by helping Anya and contacting D'Hoffryn in Selfless. I rank that higher than being all humble and grovelling. Willow felt sufficient guilt re: Anya. More than Anya ever felt re: Willow.
     
  10. brittles

    brittles Scooby

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    Sineya
    Well in Normal Again Buffy was literally about to kill every one of them and everyone seemed to forgive her for that so yeah I feel like they all have had to forgive each other for something major at one time or another. After the whole thing where Willow went all invisible in Same Time, Same Place they all seemed to be really supportive and happy to have her back.
     
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  11. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    I loved how in an ep after Normal Again where Buffy tells Spike that her friends forgave her after she nearly killed them, so she wasn't scared of Spike telling revealing their dark secret to them. :D
     
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  12. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    I dislike Buffy in that scene because she comes across as really up herself and it's such a snotty nosed attitude.
     
  13. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    At least we know they remember the really bad stuff even if it seems it never happened.
     
  14. brittles

    brittles Scooby

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    Sineya
    She actually is pretty snotty in that scene but I guess it would be kind of annoying after a while to have someone keep holding that secret over your head and constantly use it as leverage on you. However on Spike's side of things it would be really hurtful to have someone keep using you the way she used him for a long time.
     
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  15. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    I think Spike did just genuinely want it out in the open, in Tabula Rasa he want to talk to Buffy about their kiss and what it means yet Buffy just shuts him down. Spike literally doesn't know where he stands with Buffy, one minute she's telling him to get lost, the next she's knocking on his crypt door for sex. It was an unhealthy relationship for both of them to be in.
     
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  16. Dora

    Dora Potential

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    I think in normal again Buffy is fighting her Depression, every time she try to start to get to grips with it the trio steps in ie with the Demon, she is struggling with her depression still struggling with being brought back. She can be somewhere safe with mum and dad, looked after, like when she was dead and in heaven, or alive with the responsibility of Dawn and the slayer , it would be easier if her friends were dead she could forget about being the slayer, fortunately Buffy mentally pulled though and killed the demon ( Death ) and realest her friends ( life)
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 26, 2016 ---
    Spike was a arse, he had no idea what love is he was just obsessed with the slayer , you don't bribe some one you love, if Buffy wanted her friends to know she would have told them, he was like a big school boy bragging of his conquests he told Faith and arriving on Angel he told him.Buffy had depression and going to Spike was a metaphor for self harming, She hated being dragged out of heaven hated herself and the most degrading thing she could do was to go to Spike a evil dead demon a thing as a slayer she most despised. She did not use Spike for sex but to punish herself, that,s why she apologised to him and told him she had been using him .Spike let it happen, he knew Buffy had come back wrong , but he was getting what he wanted, he was abusing Buffy taking advantage of her mental issues certainly not being her friend but why would he he was a evil selfish demon.
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 26, 2016 ---
    I don't think you can forgive what went on ,take Buffy , Willow dragged Buffy out of heaven then basically dropped her leaving her to deal with the depression and mental issues alone, later she was going to kill Dawn and fought with Buffy, Xander was as bad, lying to Buffy about Willows spell on Angel, verbaly attacking Buffy not only when she returned home in Dead Mens Party but also in SR when she told him how hard it was being back and how that he did not what to know and as for Giles just up and leaving Buffy as soon as he found she had been in heaven, who needs friends like them..... no wonder she turned to a soled spike in season seven
     
  17. brittles

    brittles Scooby

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    Sineya
    Well as far as "who needs friends like them", Buffy needs them. They are a huge part of the reason why she's been so successful as a slayer. Though I do agree that they have all made questionable choices in regards to each other at one time or another I think the majority of their actions come with good intentions at the heart of them. Besides it's not like they haven't been there to pull through for her about a million times. There's always friction in friendships and the fact that they didn't have more of it considering what they all deal with on a daily basis is admirable if you ask me. Willow resurrecting her came from a place of good intention. It is mentioned by Willow in Bargaining that she "can't just leave her there" assuming she doesn't realize that Buffy simply went to a good place and was happy. If Willow was aware that Buffy was O.K. I don't necessarily believe that she would have gone about things in the same way. They all thought she was in some Hell Dimension and intended to rescue her from it. I also think it's safe to say that Willow didn't understand just how traumatic the whole experience was for Buffy. Buffy wasn't exactly forthcoming about what she was dealing with emotionally which is totally understandable and yes, Willow could have displayed more concern in making sure she was dealing. I just think the lack of communication blinded everyone a little as to what exactly Buffy was going through. I never quite understood why Giles chose this precise time to up and leave. I know that it's partly because he wants her to learn to become an adult and deal with life things on her own but still, it doesn't seem right. Again, it seems to stem from a good intention but not necessarily a good idea.
     
  18. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    I disagree. Vampires can love, just not wisely. Spike was desperate for Buffy's love and was taking whatever he could get but it wasn't healthy for either of them.

    Buffy didn't want her friends to know she'd been in heaven because she didn't want them to feel bad about bringing her back. They'd done it with good intentions, thinking she was in hell, so she felt conflicted because she was now miserable because of them but she still cared about them enough to want to keep that from them.

    Spuffy was not good or healthy for either of them. I don't think you can blame one for the other's actions and vice versa. Each of them has to be responsible for their own actions.
     
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  19. Dora

    Dora Potential

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    Yes Spike loved Buffy in a very sick way, what did he say when he was trying to rape her....i know you will love me when I am inside you or something similar.....sick.....He stalked Buffy and no doubt Stalkers think they love their victims, but he did not really love her he was obsessed by the slayer and that slayer could have been willow then he,s obsession would have been with her, he was so different in season seven when he had his sole
    Again Buffy looking after her friends more strain on her bottling it up not wanting to harm their feeling in stead of yelling them out. Never understood why they thought she had gone to hell the slayer going to hell ? it does not make sense, they had her body? her soul had left, why would you not consider that she might be in heaven no matter what her death. Angel went completely to hell body and all completely differtent
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 26, 2016 ---
    I was talking about a specific season six, They brought her back and like DMP season three they had moved on , how many times in six did we see them patrolling with Buffy, how many times did they actually try to find out and help even after they found out she had been in heaven, they got her back just so she could look after them, Willow had her magics and Tara and Xander had anya and was planning their wedding no one had time for Buffy....except one who was evil and obsessed with her. Buffy did finally go for help to try to understand why she was acting as she was not understanding she was suffering with depression, but it was not to her best friends it was to Tara the only one in the show her any affection. What are best friends for if you cannot tell your problems. As for Giles nothing no way can you forgive what he did , You were dragged out of heaven, you have Dawn to look after , you have no money, you are like a Daughter to me ....by the way I am of to England and wont be in touch again . Total low life What did he say in Grave the most adult thing is to ask for help, no the most Adult thing is to give help where it is needed and Buffy needed help
     
  20. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Buffy died closing a portal to a hell dimension, it not unreasonable to think there was a possibility she could've been trapped in that dimension.
     
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