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Discussion of Buffy 11.08 - Released 6/21/17 (Dark Horse)

Discussion in 'Season 11' started by Buffy Summers, Jun 21, 2017.

  1. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    Out in the real world without their magic, Buffy and Willow are facing challenges in a new way. As normal girls, getting back into the Safe Zone to release the residents feels impossible—but they aren’t alone. The Scoobies are reunited and have some special backup!

    Source: Dark Horse
     
  2. Stoney

    Stoney Spiked!

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    If you haven't caught them elsewhere, here are my thoughts... :p

    Another enjoyable issue. I was glad the possibility Riley/Sam were intending to help further on the outside was true. And I like that Buffy's feelings about her beat up on the guy in the park were so mixed and confusing for her. I think this was a real strength in this issue and is definitely a scene I'd like to read over again. I think it was a great way to show both her intrinsic 'self' and her sense of a loss of identity all at once. It was a shame her jumbled emotions were moved past by the weakest part of the issue for me. The whole thing of Sam's 'clever' manipulation of Buffy/Willow really stood out as a moment of awkwardly weak writing/characterisations. It was just too clichéd and blatant, just a poor prompt to use for pushing Buffy back into a 'can do' attitude for me.

    A jumble of other thoughts... I absolutely loved Faith's entrance and I adore Rebekah's depiction of her, probably my favourite character artwork from RI, so I was delighted to see her again. I doubt this will be the last we will see of Calliope, but I liked the use of her here for the very thing that Willow had raised in camp with her, how different things could seem when out again. How distinctly Calliope separates the two isn't the same as we are seeing for our gang who live in the supernatural world in a more complete/consistent sense. This also linked in with the wiccan the guy was speaking to in the park and his conversation with Buffy before the fight. How separate or innate are the connections people have and how subjective the perception of this can be to individuals and those observing. Fundamentally you could always choose ways to judge and withdraw from accepting/understanding others if you apply prejudice. For our gang certainly, removing their powers doesn't separate them from what is happening still, and not just because Spike is still in there, but for them all on individual levels too and because they are considering the wider implications and taking a stance/responsibility. It follows really nicely from the nods to responsibility and power we had in the last issue and linked with the meaning surrounding the scythe. I was pleased they acknowledged the risk to Dawn of the magic draining, but wasn't surprised at her reluctance to being told to leave. Shame we have heard no more about the Giles mini so far.

    It's very much a piece of the whole this one. I've have nothing else to add from my first read other than it is going to be another frustrating month waiting to get to the next instalment. Very interested to see how the end face off with the camp slayers will go down.
     
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  3. Priceless

    Priceless She doesn't just fight evil, she redeems it

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    Thanks @Stoney for your thoughts. I won't get my copy for a few days :( but I always like to hear what others think, so I'm prepared if anything terrible happens. Looking forward to seeing what Riley and Sam have been upto, because I was not happy with Sam in the last issue. Also can't wait to see what reception Faith gets :) (I say it every time, but I've missed her in the Angel comic)
     
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  4. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    I haven't read it yet, but it seems like she's gonna be THE Slayer now (I don't count the Newbies as anything but knockoffs of the real thing) Maybe, if Buffy has to depend on her to do most of the heavy lifting, so to speak, they can finally settle their differences and become the friends I always hoped that they would be (Hey, Fuffies, wouldn't you love it if this is the much dreaded Spuffy break up and the long pined for... Nah, even Joss wouldn't go THAT far)
     
  5. gnarl

    gnarl Townie

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    This had me wishing there where more issues in this series and craving the stand alone episodes of the TV show (and also made me realise what a sucker I am for Buffy 'in the dark place').

    I found the first part of the comic really intriguing. The scene with Buffy and the potential-rapist/magic-bigot was so interesting because it explores the idea that Buffy's power insulates her from inter-human violence simply because humans are mostly not a threat to her.
    In season six I always thought that The Trio's greatest defence against Buffy was not their gadgets or demons but their humanness. The nature of Buffy's calling meant that she couldn't just take them down the way she would a demon (hence the running around and trying to save them from Willow at the end).
    In this comic we kind of see the inverse of that; Making Buffy vulnerable to other humans, makes her more threatening to them in a weird way. In the past, she could have overpowered the man with little danger to either of them, but in her weakened state it becomes a potentially fatal battle. It's a nice echo back to issue 2 (I think?) when Buffy and Spike where trying to figure out how to fight back the mob without Killing anyone, they are most dangerous to their opponents when they are under real threat.
    When ever Buffy has had to fight someone that hard in the past, it's always been been a fight to the death (or a round of kick the Spike). The scene is also an interesting look into the way Buffy operates as a result of being The Slayer for all these years, the strategies with which she handles dangerous situations.

    The scene with Willow seeing Calliope again was also interesting. I read Calliope saying Willow seemed different as a way of saying she's lost some of her luster, some of what makes her special and attractive. In season 6, theres a scene where Willow is worried that Tara won't love her without her magic, saying Tara never even met the timid, powerless Willow and Calliope's 'rejection' is almost like the realisation of the fear that her magic is the only thing that makes her worth while.
    (wow, lots of season six popping up here)

    All of this makes me wish that the whole issue was dedicated to the 'normal people' arc. I felt, (like @Stoney ) that these issues where wrapped up far too quickly for the sake of diving back into the plot. The issue feels like two distinct stories which have been smushed together, and the result is some rather awkward dialogue, namely:
    1. Dawn and Xander expositioning us through Willow and Buffy's 'changes'. (Don't tell me that Willow is withdrawn and without confidence, show me! I want to feel it!)
    2. Riley and Sam showing up with their pep talk ('As You Where' was awkward enough, if you're going to use the 'Riley shows up and reminds Buffy who she is' story, at least try to improve on it!) (hey, another season 6 flashback!)
    Part of what I love about Buffy is the character-work and I would have been more than happy to read a whole issue about Buffy and Willow dealing with being normal and regaining their confidence on their own terms.
    Also, the escape plan goes from zero to 100 is no time at all! we've had not inkling that Buffy and Willow had a plan before this and no sense of what they are really up against.

    Don't get me wrong, I liked both parts of this issue but I felt they needed more breathing room.
     
    Stoney: Some great points and I loved your ties with S6. :)
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  6. GoSpuffy

    GoSpuffy Vampire Lover, I mean Slayer

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    Black Thorn
    I liked the issue but it's not my favorite. I think the season is too short so they're glossing over things we want to see in more detail. This felt like a transition issue, out of the camp and into the war, but the war isn't quite on yet. The cliff hanger ending was great though. I'm glad job one for Buffy was getting Spike! Or at least attempting too. Sam and Riley allueded too hidden support, I sure hope some of those slayers are actually loyal to the buffster or it isn't looking good right now.
     
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  7. Priceless

    Priceless She doesn't just fight evil, she redeems it

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    Even without her powers, Buffy will always be The Slayer :) But I can see more of a friendship forming between the two women, especially now Faith can feel superior, and really that's all she's has ever wanted.
     
  8. HowiMetdaSlayer

    HowiMetdaSlayer Occasionally, I am callous and strange.

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    Faith sighting! :) Wife of Riley - LoL! :p Faith telling Buffy that 'you're my dog'. ♥
     
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  9. Forever Spuffy

    Forever Spuffy shiny beads and sweet talk

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    Slay the Critics, "next issue best kissy-face panel ever." :D❤ Spuffy (swoon)
     
    GoSpuffy: Doesn't get better than spuffy kissy face. Can't wait!!!
    Priceless: What @GoSpuffy said
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  10. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Not so much superior, I think, as just not inferior. I think that she would have had much less accepting Buffy as an equal in Season 3 if their roles had been reversed. Faith was envious, maybe even jealous, of Buffy's family and friends, and she realized in Season 7 that Buffy had an aptitude for leadership that she, herself, would never have. Above and beyond all else, I think that Faith simply wants Buffy to see her as a trusted friend, but she seems to share Angel's talent for screwing up relationships.
     
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  11. Priceless

    Priceless She doesn't just fight evil, she redeems it

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    I've always thought Faith wanted to feel superior, not just equal, to Buffy, because she thinks that Buffy feels superior to her. I'm not sure Buffy will every accept Faith as a trusted friend, after all that's happened between them. But maybe Faith will finally prove herself to Buffy in this season, as it looks like she's the only one left with useful powers outside the safe zone.

    Like you say, she's got a habit of screwing things up when they are going well. I wish Faith would just be herself and stop trying so hard to win Buffy's friendship. She's grown so much in recent years, and she should let that shine through, if they become friends that's great, but Faith should learn to be happy with herself either way.
     
  12. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Yeah, though that sounds a bit hypocritical, considering what she has forgiven both Spike and Angel, and, even if you use the argument that vampires with souls aren't responsible for what their soulless counterparts did, Angel, not Angelus, was directly responsible for the deaths of literally thousands of people, and was a key player in a plot to destroy a huge portion of humanity in Season 8. She apparently forgave him for that, plus even the murder of Giles. Surely, nothing that Faith has ever done can compare with that.
     
  13. HowiMetdaSlayer

    HowiMetdaSlayer Occasionally, I am callous and strange.

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    I thought Angel was taken over by Twilight in season 8?
     
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  14. Priceless

    Priceless She doesn't just fight evil, she redeems it

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    As @HowiMetdaSlayer says, Angel was taken over by Twilight in S8, so he wasn't Angel. Spike had no soul, so cannot be judged by the same criteria as a souled human.

    Buffy loved Angel so he's easier to forgive, whereas Buffy never really liked Faith, and it's easier to forgive those you love then those you've never liked. Angel and Buffy had strong foundations, a history of loving each other and putting their lives on the line for each other, whereas Buffy and Faith haven't had that history.

    I do think in recent years Buffy and Faith have become closer, there is more understanding between them, and they could build a friendship, but deep down I think Buffy will always be wary of Faith and her motivations, which may be hypocrital, but is also very human.
     
  15. Foxy

    Foxy I am cookie dough!

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    Sineya
    OOOOOH! I totally missed this! I will read this today :D
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2017 ---
    Okay! I just read the issue and I absolutely loved it. I love that Buffy found the power to beat up this guy and I loved her reaction to the situation. Everything in this issue was perfect! I love that Sam is actually a person who makes her own choices and I kind of hope that she and Riley will hang around a bit more. I find them enjoyable and fun.

    Oh I am so in love this with season! Each issue leaves me wanting more. Everything is spot on!

    @Priceless sorry to say but I did not miss Spike. There has been too much focus on him this season. I find it refreshing to see a bit of the other characters again, but I still accept their relationship ;)

    Here ends the very critical review of Foxy :)
     
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  16. Priceless

    Priceless She doesn't just fight evil, she redeems it

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    Too much focus on Spike?? I don't think that's even possible! :p I'm looking forward to seeing the other characters too, especially Faith.

    I am so jealous you've all read this edition and I haven't even got mine yet. Damn you Royal Mail!
     
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  17. Foxy

    Foxy I am cookie dough!

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    Sineya
    There won't be too much Faith in this issue, so don't get your hopes up but you will love Buffy's internal conflicts. It was done beautifully! *hypes the issue for you*. I think you will love this issue regardless of the lack of Spike :p
     
    Priceless: Well now you're just being cruel :-0
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  18. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    He was Angel when he willingly volunteered to help Twilight destroy most of the population on Earth in exchange for getting to be with Buffy on the new world. The fact that he justified it to himself by saying that he did it in order to save a small part of the world's population just doesn't hold water. Buffy would never knowingly agree to any such bargain, and he knew it, which is why he kept his identity concealed from her for so long, and why she rejected his plan once he did reveal it.

    Saying that Angel was "taken over" by twilight isn't the same as the excuse about soulless Angelus, if for no other reason, Angel didn't even technically exist before having his soul returned to him. Angel went along with Twilight rather than stand by Buffy's side from the very beginning, only coming over to her side once she rejected Twilight's plan. That makes him, at the very least, a willing accessory to everything that Twilight did.
     
    Stoney: Yeah, Angel was definitely culpable for the choices he did make that got him involved in the whole Twilight plan.
    HowiMetdaSlayer: He did what?! o_O Sorry, not buying it. Another reason why I might never read S8 (or 9?). Maybe just the Willow comics.
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  19. Priceless

    Priceless She doesn't just fight evil, she redeems it

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    Twilight manipulated Angel into believing he was saving the world, or helping to build a better world. Angel didn't have all the facts, or the full understanding of what he was committing to. I think you can blame Angel for being naive and stupid, but to blame him completely for what Twilight did is similar to another discussion on this boards, about people choosing to become vampires when they have no concept of what being a vampire truly entails. I don't believe Angel truly understood what becoming Twilight would mean, so I cut him some slack for his terrible choices.

    I would also say that Angel never made a decision that affected Buffy by looking at it from Buffy's pov. He always knew what was best for her, so her feelings probably didn't feature greatly in his decision making when it came to becoming Twilight :)
     
    HowiMetdaSlayer: Angel manipulated...cuz that never happens ;)
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  20. Stoney

    Stoney Spiked!

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    Angel's hubris played a part in how it was possible to convince him that he was destined for Twilight and his failure to consider how dreadful the plan was when it involved pulling Buffy down and making her vulnerable was bad. Warning bells should have been sounding loudly and he just didn't hear them. I do agree that he was manipulated, but the difference between that and being sired that we were discussing in the other thread is that he had opportunity to go away and look into it more, find out more, ask other people etc. When someone is being killed/sired by a vampire they are rarely even told what is happening from what we've seen. Certainly neither Liam nor William were given any opportunity to even hear what Dru/Darla intended for them, let alone walk away and reconsider. They didn't actually chose to go along with what was happening in any meaningful way.

    I do agree though that Angel should be forgiven because I do think that, however foolish, he did believe that it was a greater good situation. But I still think of him as being culpable for getting involved in the situation. He should have questioned it because of what it involved, if for no other reason. It is somewhat different from Faith's mistakes because he was manipulated (although it has to be said the Mayor did a good job of making Faith feel separate to the others too), but his own character faults played a big part in how easy that was to do (like Faith's distrust/jealousies), so I don't think it can be seen to be totally out of his (or her!) hands, and I really don't think he (or she*) sees it like that either. I think Angel felt he needed forgiving in S9 when he was talking to Willow, even if he did still want to hold clear that he had thought it was the right thing to do at the time.

    (*Okay I talked myself around in a loop there, they both were manipulated and should both be forgiven as they have both seen their fault in it. :D)
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
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