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Do you think Angel deserves the Shanshu ?

Discussion in 'Season 1' started by Antho, Jul 7, 2017.

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Do you think Angel deserves the Shanshu ?

Poll closed Jul 14, 2017.
  1. Yes

    6 vote(s)
    75.0%
  2. No

    2 vote(s)
    25.0%
  1. Antho

    Antho Potential

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    I just finished the season 1 few days ago and the final episode reveals that maybe Angel could become human if he saves lives, stops apocalypse... Do you think he deserves this reward ?
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
  2. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    Yes, why not?
    He's more than proved that he deserves it :D
     
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  3. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    Non-Whedon Angel absolutely deserves a freaking break already. Enough is enough with the eternal punishment and suffering for things he didn't even do.
     
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  4. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    If Angel became human, and was thus no longer bound by the gypsy curse, then he and Buffy would be at it like rabbits. They're each other's one true loves and are forced apart through circumstances. They'll try and move on and have relationships with others, maybe even feel love and affection for them, but they'll always be drawn to one another.
     
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  5. Antho

    Antho Potential

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    But I'm not sure about what I think about this story of Shanshu. He will fight against the evil, he will deliver battle and if he survives he will become human but where I'm disturbed is in "I Will Remember you" Angel was human, he had the thing he absolutely always wanted (a human life with Buffy) and of course he erases everything to save Buffy, and now he wants to become human ? But he has already refused that ! I'm really confused...
     
  6. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    Yeah but he only erased it to save Buffy as you said.
    I'm sure if everything could be perfect once he's human then he could be happy. But the thing with Angel is that he's so guilty for everything he's done, he thinks that redemption lasts forever and you should never stop paying so maybe he'd be a bit uncomfortable with becoming human. He might not feel like he deserves it even though he does :)
     
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  7. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Him being human and being with Buffy was at the price of Buffy being killed. It was kind of a does Angel put his own selfish needs before others scenario. Angel chose to sacrifice the life he always wanted so that it would save Buffy. Angel is prepared to take the long hard road and be patient rather than have things handed to him on a plate which would tempt him from his path of atonement and also comes with caveats eg the gem of Amara would enable him to walk in sunlight and be immortal but it would also mean the same for Angelus.
     
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  8. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

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    I'm torn on the issue. Part of me thinks he does deserve it. Another part of me thinks the character works best if he doesn't get what he wants.

    And I don't think Angel thinks he deserves it himself and I don't see how he'd be happy with it if he thinks he doesn't deserve it.
     
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  9. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy Neutered vampire who cheats at kitten poker

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    Sineya
    I think Angel deserves the Shanshu but I think since "Epiphany" he really stopped going for it. Angel understands there is no glorious ending. The point of Not Fade Away ending on a cliffhanger is to enhance the theme of the show that the fight never stops. If Angel got the Shanshu, it would be disappointing. He's a warrior and should fight until he dies. A happy ending after all this time would just seem wrong.
     
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  10. Antho

    Antho Potential

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    You're probably right.. Angel associates being human with liberty, being free from guilt but humans also feel culpability. He would still have consciousness and probably still feel bad about Angelus's actions..

    I'm agree with you, I undertsand what Angel did in IWRY and I understand the reasons.
    But beyond Buffy I thought above all that Angel liked to play the heroes and that being human did not suit him. So it surprises me that he wants this reward.
     
  11. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    Which was the right attitude for him to take. If you do good because you expect a reward, then that's not really laudable. Doing good for the sake of doing good is where it's at.

    I don't see it that way because I don't think Angel would change in any fundamental way. He would still try to be a fighter, just of a different kind. However it would also allow him to experience a fuller life which he is more than overdue for.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 8, 2017 ---
    But isn't that the point of the whole Shanshu? Because it's not on Angel to decide if or when he deserves it. It's on whatever higher power made the prophecy. And just because he gets it doesn't mean everything is suddenly all roses and puppies. I could see a post-Shanshu Angel really struggling with the fact that he did in fact get it because that's who he is. He never thinks he deserves anything good. I think a well told post-Shanshu story could be all kinds of entertaining, ranging from funny to sad. Added bonus is the break from the status quo of eternal punishment for a fundamental good guy (deep down anyway despite some of his actions) which I was tired of by the time he lost Connor.
     
  12. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

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    Now you're making me want it!!! That would have been very interesting indeed.
     
  13. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    Get in line. :p

    In my head all the things that make him Angel would still be there even if he was human. I could see his self doubt about being deserving of Shanshu send him into a long depression. Because why does he get something good when he has done so many questionable things that he thinks made him undeserving. The people closest to him, who he thinks are better than him, have all ended up dead. And he feels responsible for that. That's not going to suddenly go away just because he is human.

    Watching Angel struggle with what to do with himself now that he isn't a superpowered fighter anymore. What will he do with his life? Will he continue being a supernatural PI? Will he teach demonology? The possibilities are endless.

    There can be loads of funny too. My favorite part of IWRY was Angel discovering food again. That was hilarious. This can be branched out into lots of human, every day things. And lets not forget his extreme social awkwardness. As a human in a human world he would automatically be forced to interact with them more than ever which would lead to all kinds of interactions. Just imagine Angel setting foot in a grocery store for the first after becoming human. ROFL.

    That's why I wanted him to get the Shanshu and I wanted this story to be told. Because I'm just tired of the status quo. And because I know that becoming human won't automatically change who Angel is.
     
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  14. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Frankly, I think that if Angel ever were granted the Shanshu, he'd find some way to screw his life, and probably the lives of everyone around him up again, and claim that he was doing it "for the greater good." That's Angel's true curse. The soul is just a minor irritant.

    But, does he deserve it? Not for anything that I have seen so far.

    And on the question of the Shanshu, do we actually even know whether it even still exists, since magic has been erased in Season 8, then rebooted the next Season?
     
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  15. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    Oh for the love of...

    Depends on who made the prophecy. Since only higher powers seem to have the might to do such things I don't think it matters what's up with magic. Unless said powers are on another plane with no access.
     
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  16. Priceless

    Priceless She doesn't just fight evil, she redeems it

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    Of course he deserves it. He tries his hardest to do good, even though he often makes questionable decisons and doesn't keep focus on what's important. I do think it would be a case of 'be careful what you wish for' and would worry that once he got it, he wouldn't want it
     
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  17. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    Sorry, I'm with @white avenger here, Angel's total life plus unlife has been almost a quarter of a millennium. Good people don't get that. In fact, some of the best people never get any kind of break and live shorter than average lives. So he spent his souled unlife unhappy? That was his choice.

    His fatal decision was to think he could change Wolfram & Hart from the inside by accepting Lilah's offer. Yeah, he was going to clean up Wolfram & Hart even though he never knew who was pulling the strings or what the structure of the company was like (and he only ran the Los Angeles branch, not the company). But he ends up killing the Drogyn with no justification other than to get into the Circle of the Black Thorn, just like some of the worst street gangs require new members to kill someone as an initiation. He signs away the Shanshu but signs his name as Anger rather than Angel. Then he wipes out the Circle of the Black Thorn and unleashes hell on earth in Los Angeles. He solidifies one of his main failings: making decisions on behalf of other people who get no choice in the matter.

    I see Angel's arc as a rise and fall, not as an upward progression, just like I see Buffy as the effective general at the end of Season 3 but an irrational ditz at the end of Season 7. Both had their rise and fall.
     
  18. flow

    flow Potential

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    Does it make a difference that he signed it away ? I am actually very undecided on that question. You could argue that it wasn`t for him to decide if he was worthy or not and thus he could simply not sign away (though I would ask why the Black Thorn made such a fuss about it then). On the other hand you could argue that he does not deserve it anymore because he rejected it out of his own decision.

    As I said, I don`t know how to answer that question. I would like to hear your opinions though.

    flow
     
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  19. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

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    The funny thing is... this, for me, makes him deserve it even more.
     
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  20. Antho

    Antho Potential

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    Yes I am also of the opinion that when you renounce something for yourself it is the proof that you make pass the others before you and therefore that you deserve even more the reward. Finally, I see things like that. It's like Dawn in "Potential", she thinks she is a potential, acts as such, but in the end she passes on her knowledge to Amanda, but that doesn't mean Dawn doesn't deserve to be a potential.
     
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