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Does dawn actually have a soul?

Discussion in 'Season 5' started by S Rou, Jun 2, 2017.

  1. S Rou

    S Rou Potential

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    I know Whedon has said before she is a real person but is she really? Does she actually have a soul? Some have said that the key is her soul, but I mean, is she really the key or was she just a random body and mind that was created by magic to house the key?

    As Giles pointed out in the end of S5. She's not even really buffys sister.

    And I haven't read the comics but isn't there a scene in them where it says that if dawn died, all memories of her would fade away or something?

    I have never considered her to be a real person. I have seen many, many fans who share my opinion.
     
  2. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    I don't see why Dawn wouldn't have a soul, they created her from Buffy and Buffy has a soul, so why not?
    The whole Dawn thing is very weird when you think about it because all the love and desire to protect Dawn that the scoobies and Buffy have was all the monks' doing. So I can see why people wouldn't think she's a real person.
     
  3. S Rou

    S Rou Potential

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    I've said before and many agreed with me that I personally think she should've been a one season kinda thing. Instead of Buffy dying in the gift, it should have been her. I've seen many fans with this opinion.

    One thing that I hated about her was how she changed everyone's memories. It almost makes it like the first four seasons were completely erased and no one remembers what actually happened except maybe Buffy.
     
  4. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    Yeah you do have to wonder what Dawnverse seasons 1-4 were like and how that affected how they behave in seasons 5-7.
    It did annoy me, it's like everything we were seeing from season 5 onwards was because of what the monks did. They made Buffy love Dawn, and essentially they made Buffy kill herself for Dawn because she had the need to protect her that the monks put in. I'm a Dawn fan and I think it would have been a beautiful end to her story if she'd jumped instead of Buffy. That fulfilled her character's purpose as the key and it would have probably gotten her a lot more love from some of the fans.
     
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  5. S Rou

    S Rou Potential

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    Honestly I agree with you. I'm not a Dawn fan by any means, but i do agree that if she would have jumped instead of Buffy, a lot of fans probably would have learned to appreciate her more. It certainly would have redeemed her annoying and bratty actions in many people's eyes.

    One of the things I hated most about her was basically how she altered everyone's memories and no one really remembers the truth about what actually happened in the first four seasons. I have no idea why Whedon would do this. When dawn would have died at the end of 5, everyone's true memories should have been restored.

    Personally, I find myself wanting to punch the monks for doing what they did. They completely changed buffys and everyone else's memories and lives and the fact that Buffy was so protective of dawn to the point she was willing to risk the lives of billions of people and kill her friends if they tried to stop her was extremely stupid on the monks' part. It also showed major irresponsibility on Buffy's part.

    Another thing that never made sense to me was how Buffy was able to close the portal and stop the apocalypse. Yes, Dawn's body is made in buffys image but her soul ( or whatever you want to call whatever the key is to her) isn't. Only the key should have been able to close it and Buffy is not the key. Dawn is. Some fans have pointed this out before that Buffy dying should not have closed the portal and stopped it. I honestly think this was just Whedon trying to pass it off to force dawn down our throats even though he knows how wildly unpopular she is among the majority of the fandom
     
  6. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    That's true, It didn't really make much sense that Buffy could jump in the place of Dawn, they might have the same blood but they're clearly different in many other ways. I think Whedon didn't really think about what he was doing with the monks, he did essential erase the first four seasons and make the characters different because of Dawn. I think he thought that Dawn would be widely excepted and even though I personally never found her that annoying, I know that many others did so clearly he was wrong.
     
  7. S Rou

    S Rou Potential

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    No offense but I think you're definitely a minority. Very very few people actually like her. In all honesty though, I could see myself liking her if she would have jumped instead of Buffy. If she would have, it would made a lot more sense and a lot of people would have found some way to actually appreciate her for her sacrifice even despite how she acted all season.

    True to Whedon, he loves to go against what the majority of fans want just for the sake of either annoying us or breaking our hearts.
     
  8. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    :D Whedon can be very biased about which characters he wants us to love and it does show in his writing.
    I know that Dawn is known to be hated in the fandom, but it was more what Dawn did that annoyed me rather than Dawn herself which is why I don't hate her.
     
  9. S Rou

    S Rou Potential

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    Yeah it's almost like she was written specifically so that most fans would hate her. You can say the same thing about Riley. Very few people like him. I personally can't stand him. At first he was ok but then he really got annoying with his whole military agenda thing and the fact he was so traditional and didn't really respect Buffy as a woman and a fighter.
     
  10. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    I don't really care about Riley enough to hate him, I mean he was an okay boyfriend to Buffy just not as exciting as Angel or Spike.
     
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  11. S Rou

    S Rou Potential

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    Exactly. He was the kind of boyfriend a girl's parents would want her to have. Strong, traditional, nice clean cut, college student, athletic, etc.

    Spike and Angel are the dark, mysterious, dangerous ones with genocidal pasts... You do the math... Doesn't change the fact that Riley was annoying as all hell when he became a permanent cast member. I remember cheering when Buffy didn't reach his helocopter in time.
     
  12. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    Yeah I was thinking Buffy makes it to the helicopter or she doesn't when I watched that scene. I wasn't going to care much either way.
     
  13. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    Another question: Do the fans who hate on Dawn have souls?
     
    thrasherpix: HAHAHAHAHA! :-D
    Guy, Priceless, Bluebird and 3 others like this.
  14. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    It begs the question what a soul is in the first place. We know that they can be captured by magic, and that souls can be eaten as a form of power (Illyria apparently needed Fred's soul to fuel the change, IIRC, and my own theory on why Jenoff purchased souls was that was what allowed him to return to life again and again, though even if I'm wrong on that then he still had uses for souls). The Mayor sold his soul, so it must have some value, some form of resource. OTOH, there was that little boy in Angel born without a soul (or at least lost his very early on through no real fault of his own), so a soul isn't even necessary to exist, and a person can be born without one as opposed to needing to be created by magic as Dawn was.

    Do identical twins share a soul, or do they have individual souls? What about if they're conjoined with two heads? And if conjoined twins share one soul like one body, what about when they're surgically separated? If someone was cloned, then would that clone have the same soul, or a different one?

    I don't know. But if I were to guess, then I'd say Dawn has a soul, though it may be a "recycled" one. I'm mostly basing that on how Dawn was able to invite Harmony in. As far as I can tell, it takes a human soul (or at least the type of soul of the same species as the vampire) to be able to build up some protection so that a vampire can only enter if invited by a genuine resident whereas demons have no such protection, and the power to block a vampire from entering vanishes the moment a person dies and the soul passes on. If you wanna get especially esoteric about it then one could say that as Dawn is made from Summer's blood (though that begs the question of how, but not impossible as Buffy bleeds a lot, and they could also manipulate medical professionals to get at the blood) that Dawn was essentially "linked" to their souls without actually having one herself, but that's entering the territory of asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

    Anyway, just saying for anyone actually interested in thinking about it (as opposed to thinking up an excuse to bash Dawnie around).

    And while I think season 5 would've benefited from a lot more input and thought, I do think it's a beautiful heroic end for Buffy who was fated to die. I know some hate deaths, but a death like that can be an especially epic end to a character that is as amazing as their life was.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 3, 2017 ---
    And if everyone forgets Dawn after she dies, then I wonder what they DO remember, particularly about that which only happened because of Dawn's actions.
     
  15. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy "I wanna see how it ends"

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    Sineya
    It's true that Riley was the kind of boyfriend that a girl's parents would want (excluding his occasional dark turns) but that is the problem with him being on the show. Buffy didn't need a boyfriend that her parents would approve of. She isn't normal enough to have a boyfriend like that. And it was clear that she would never love Riley, so it bothers me that it went on as long as it did.
     
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  16. Scooby Corps

    Scooby Corps Fly! Be free, little bird, you defy category!

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    Well the Buffyverse soul is not a soul in a theological sense. I see it rather as a gimmick that enables humans to be good, feel compassion, keeping darker impulses at bay, inhibitions etc.. However, it's not the persons spirit, consciousness, personality etc.

    For example, I see it like this:

    Liam= Liam + Soul

    Angelus= Liam + Demon - Soul

    Angel= Liam + Demon + Soul

    Twangel= Liam + Demon + Soul + Twilight (it's getting full in here)

    Since Dawn feels the whole range of human emotions, I estimate she does have a soul. It may be an artificial soul, but a soul nonetheless.

    Because Utilitarian!Giles tries to bring Kant!Buffy to kill her sister to save the world. It's manipulative rhetoric.

    As far as I'm concerned she's human with a soul. She's made of Buffy's blood therefore she's also related to her.

    The memories are artifice but feel real so they are real. It ****s with consistency but well, cognitive dissonance, selective perception and the like. Like, people believe everything was better in the past even though it wasn't. The Scoobies have the same memories that are crucial in defining their S1-5 stories and molded Dawn around them as far as possible. Really glaring is that Buffy was changed from an only child to a sibling. I think Buffy's initial somewhat OTT hostility towards Dawn at the beginning of S05 (which was framed in a Siblings Naturally Annoy Each Other metaphor) was kind of a supernatural immune defense reaction because Dawn was new and an intruder.

    I think the chance of outliving one's life beats a beatific-looking, forced suicide with sparks and all by a large margin. I also think Buffy's first twenty years of life beat a beatific-looking forced suicide with sparks by a large margin. There is a difference in hating death per se to rejecting the notion that twenty year old girls are supposed to die young and better off in a heteronoums heaven and proclaiming that with full righteousness. If Buffy's death was fated, then Glory's malefactions were fated. Because those led to The Gift and Buffy's suicide/sacrifice. That would mean Glory wasn't in possession of her agency. She was "controlled" by the "fates", therefore cannot be held accountable. The same goes for Doc. Spike's failure in protecting Dawn on the tower must have been fated too. Heck, screw free will altogether. The problem with fate and karma is... where does it begin and where does it end and who can be held accountable for their actions if they were led by fate/karma in the first place? The answer: whatever is convenient to world-view and preferences.
     
  17. Anyanka Bunny Killer

    Anyanka Bunny Killer "I got these evil hand issues..."

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    Black Thorn
    I don't think Dawn had a soul. The monks transformed a being of green energy into the semblance of a human....and yes, yes, they somehow used Buffy's essence in the process; but I do NOT think they had the power to create a human soul. Magic can accomplish a lot of things, but a soul? No way. Just...no.

    Creating false memories, molding the Key into a flesh and blood teenage girl...hell, Willow could do that. The coven in England probably could as well. Perhaps even Glory could. But I do not believe that ANY of them could harness the spiritual energy and divinity of a soul, much less deposit it into a fake "human" vessel...
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2017
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  18. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy "I wanna see how it ends"

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    Sineya
    With the exception of Spike, the understood truth is that you cannot love without a soul. Despite her frequent outbursts, it is clear that Dawn loves Buffy and loved her mother. It may be a flaw that we are supposed to believe the monks somehow created a soul, but she clearly had one.
     
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  19. Anyanka Bunny Killer

    Anyanka Bunny Killer "I got these evil hand issues..."

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    Black Thorn
    "The understood truth"? Drusilla loved Spike...and Angel, after a fashion. Yet she did not have a soul. Darla loved Angelus, and she lacked a soul as well. (Tell me, why is Spike an exception, exactly?)

    Yes, Dawn appeared to love Buffy and Joyce. But pets love their masters, butterflies love flowers...do they have souls?
     
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  20. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy "I wanna see how it ends"

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    Sineya
    Drusilla did not love Spike or Angel. She had some infatuation for both. And she certainly could not love both of them at once. And Darla did not love Angelus either. She left him to die multiple times and abandoned him constantly. Your definition of love is confusing. Also Buffy says, "You can't love without a soul" in Crush.