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Even as a Spike fan i found Spike's behaviour in 'Lies my parents told me' to be despicableHow fo

Discussion in 'Season 7' started by TamsinValencia, Sep 2, 2017.

  1. TamsinValencia

    TamsinValencia Townie

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    How do you feel about Spike's behaviour towards Robin?
     
  2. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    I think he was right to be annoyed at Robin. As Spike correctly pointed out, Nikki was a slayer and Spike a vampire, when the two of them meet only one is going to walk away, it's kill or be killed. Robin was pissed that Nikki didn't get to play mom and he blamed Spike for that, but the truth is even if Nikki had survived, she still wouldn't have played mom because "the mission is what matters".

    The thing that makes Robin unsympathetic in my view is how he planned on getting Spike alone then setting off the trigger. Had he gone for Spike upon realising who Spike was, then that would be different because it would've been an emotional response which no one could blame him for. However, he was rather cold and calculating then turned on Buffy because he didn't get the revenge he wanted.

    Thing is, if Robin had gone after a vampire couple and killed one of them, would the surviving partner be justified in seeking revenge on Robin?
     
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  3. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    Robin is totally sympathetic to me, imagine having to watch your mother's killer walk around wearing your mother's coat. I'd certainly want that 'person' to die.
    That doesn't mean it was right for Robin to try to kill Spike but it does make sense and it should be understandable to anyone that has or has had a mother (which is everybody).

    Spike should have 1, given the coat back to Robin and 2, Spike shouldn't have suggested that Robin should be grateful he didn't kill him. You can't be a good person (as Spike was trying to be) and threaten to kill someone if they give you a dirty look. So that was despicable behaviour. Buffy also failed as a hero when she said she'd let Spike kill Robin in my eyes. That's my opinion :)
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 2, 2017 ---
    It's not like Spike was a random vampire that Nikki came across on patrol. Spike had killed a slayer before and enjoyed having that achievement, he boasted about it and he was like a hunter looking for the best fish to catch. It was Spike who was the hunter in this situation not Nikki. So the 'kill or be killed' situation was something that Spike put himself into.
     
  4. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    Yes, I found it obnoxious at the very least. And they missed a wonderful opportunity IMO to have Spike show remorse and give Robin his mother's coat back, though that would bother some who love the entire bad boy motif.

    You can damn well bet if someone killed Buffy's mom and wore some momento that Buffy would not let it go.

    And while I wouldn't normally back what Giles and Robin did (and don't consider what Robin attempted to be just, however understandable), Buffy was being completely irrational, and Giles was right in what he said to Buffy about her bad decision making. Sure, Buffy's way worked, but only through the miracle of plot armor.

    And my impression is that Giles only went along with it (and Robin never would've acted without support from Giles as he respected Watchers, unless it was pure heat of the moment) because Buffy refused to work on Spike's trigger or even restrain him (IIRC, even Spike wanted to be restrained, but Buffy said no). Had reasonable attempts been made to ensure Spike wasn't a danger to others as further attempts were made to get rid of the trigger then I don't think Giles would've done what he did...the same Giles that killed Ben because Buffy couldn't. Giles was the one willing to go the distance, which Buffy wanted of all them (save herself) to do, but the less said about Buffy's character in season 7 (the only season I disliked Buffy) the better.
     
  5. Stoney

    Stoney Spiked!

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    I've talked about this a lot in the past so I'll try to keep it brief. I do think Spike is too callous in what he says to Robin and takes it too far after he regains control. But I do also think that his anger is understandable as Robin, who openly acknowledged Spike wasn't the monster who had killed his mum any longer, deliberately took away Spike's control by triggering him. I find both their responses and feelings are understandable, and neither of them come out of it smelling of roses.

    I think the fact that Spike had rejected wearing the coat when souled and clearly wanted to turn away from the connections it held matters a lot in coming to accept his choice to wear it again. He didn't relish the fight any more souled and the urge for violence is connected to the demon within that is suppressed now by the soul, and that part within was what the coat represented. There was an immediacy of need, a pressure established in Get It Done, which showed Spike's choice to go and get the coat to specifically be about giving himself that connection. He was being told he wasn't being as effective as needed in the fight and the coat was used to fix that. LMPTM then gives what I'm sure is an intentional mirroring in Spike connecting to that side of himself through wearing the coat again, having to overrule who he is souled, and Robin's desire to draw the monster out too in openly admitting he was overruling who Spike is now by using the trigger. Importantly, in continuation to this, I think there is also then the very deliberate framing of Spike's choice to wear the coat, and to continue to keep wearing it despite learning who Robin is, against Buffy's and Nikki's message that it is the mission that matters.

    Image is a consistent character theme for Spike and his insecurities are often exposed this way. That he has a need for props to create a persona and allow himself to connect with something he feels fundamentally separate to now is a result of a personal weakness for sure, but it is a consistent character trait and it is still about him setting aside other considerations, both his and Robin's, for the greater good. I really can understand why some fans don't like Spike wearing it and continuing to wear it, but I just have to agree to disagree because I think the show adequately covers how wearing the coat is a choice that goes against what Spike wants and why he does it anyway. For me especially, framing it against Nikki's choice to put the mission first really underlines that this is about him choosing to take up the mantle and put himself fully, emotionally and physically, on the line for the mission.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2017
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  6. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy "I wanna see how it ends"

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    Sineya
    I thought it was good that Spike regained his pride and badassness without being really evil. He had been struggling to find a balance all season, much to the dismay of Buffy. (Get it Done) I've said before Robin is my least favorite Buffyverse character, and I think his stories are often unnecessary and combined with poor dramatic acting. But even disregarding that fact I think it's important to note that Spike was defending himself from someone who was trying to kill him. There were obviously other circumstances and a lot of moral conflicts, but sometimes things should just be taken at face value. Spike defeated an attacker and let him live. That's, yes I dare to say, honorable.
     
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  7. Monkey Pants

    Monkey Pants Bored Now

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    Black Thorn
    I thought it was ridiculous. Just because you were evil when you did it, and you're not now, doesn't mean you have to have NO sympathy for him. And to say his mother never loved him? Spike has no way of knowing that and is trying to be cruel.
     
  8. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    I don't argue that Spike continuing to wear the coat AFTER HE KNEW THAT ROBIN WAS NIKKI'S SON was, at the very least, in bad taste. However, in Spike's defense, he didn't know that until Robin tried to kill him after acknowledging that he knew that Spike, with his soul restored, wasn't the same monster who killed his mother. Maybe, and I emphasize, MAYBE, if Robin had simply come to him and identified himself, Spike might have given him the coat voluntarily. We will never know. He might have even been more sympathetic about killing Nikki. Remember, Spike was, I think justifiably, angry at someone who had pretended to be an ally, if not a friend, (whose life he had even just saved the night before, by the way) lured him into a trap, and then tried to kill him. At that point, I think that Spike might have continued wearing the coat just to remind Robin of what would happen if he ever tried something like that again.

    That isn't a whole lot different from Angel continuing to live in the mansion where Angelus had tortured Giles after killing Jenny Calendar, the mansion whose owner, for all we know, Angelus might very well have killed. Buffy didn't seem to have too much trouble disassociating Angel from what Angelus had done.

    I think that it would have been interesting to see, if Robin had simply have identified himself and asked for Spike to return his mother's coat, without all the lies and betrayal, whether or not Spike would have returned it, and even tried to apologize for what had happened. Maybe Spike would have been gracious, or maybe he would have been a total ass about it, but we'll never really know. What we do know is, at that point, Spike was the strongest ally that Buffy in her fight. He had offered to leave, and Buffy had said that she wasn't ready for him not to be there. To Spike's way of thinking, attacking him just might have been the same, under those circumstances, as an attack on Buffy, or, at least, an attempt to undermine her authority.

    I think that it would also have been interesting to have seen what would have happened if Buffy had, after knowing the full truth, gone to Spike and asked him to return Nikki's coat, what Spike would have done, and what Robin's response would have been.

    Robin Wood might have had every right to expect justice for the killing of his mother if Spike was still the monster who did the killing, but it has been established as canon in the Buffyverse that an ensouled vampire is not responsible for anything that he did prior to regaining his soul, and Robin even acknowledged that he knew that difference ("I don't want to kill you, Spike. I WANT TO KILL THE MONSTER WHO TOOK MY MOTHER FROM ME") The person who Robin Wood led into that garage was NOT that monster. Buffy knew it, Giles knew it, and Robin, himself, knew it. The trigger MIGHT have been a primary concern for Giles (though I personally think that he was more concerned about Buffy's feelings for yet another vampire than the safety of the Potentials) but it was little more than an excuse for Robin to extract what he saw as revenge, and at a time when there was a legitimate reason to let Spike stay "alive " in order to help in the upcoming fight.
     
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  9. Stoney

    Stoney Spiked!

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    How spurred Robin's actions were by the coat, or how heightened they became because of it, is uncommented on I think. He may have done exactly the same attack if he was sure he had the right vamp even if he'd never seen Spike in the coat. Either way, his deliberate decision to use the trigger and overrule who Spike was now is pretty abhorrent, even if his desire to be able to avenge his mum is also understandable. But it really was unnecessary for Spike to be so cruel in his assertions about Nikki's love for her son, even if his anger is also very understandable. I really do find both characters sympathetic and also find some fault in them both.

    It is an interesting point that Robin could have raised the issue of the coat directly and that we don't know how that would have played out. I don't remember ever hearing that suggestion in discussions before. I'm not sure Spike would have ultimately changed his choice and gained his 'fight' back another way under the time constraints they were in though. He may have just refused, politely or not. But this is where the point that everything was being put secondary to the mission would have come back to the fore anyway. How Spike felt about wearing the coat and how Robin felt about it were both being put aside for the greater good. But it is an interesting point nonetheless that Robin could have approached Spike about the coat if he had wanted, and especially considering he saw/understood Spike was distinct from his mum's killer, and didn't even know Robin was her son. Spike wearing the coat does tend to be where people/discussion focuses rather than Robin's initial decision to use the trigger and attack Spike, even despite his acknowledgement and understanding of how Spike is no longer his mother's killer. The story deals with Spike's choice to wear the coat, the need to reconnect and the framing of the decision as being against what he wants but for the good of the mission. Robin's choices are more plainly presented as being vengeance driven, despite any other considerations.
     
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  10. flow

    flow Male Vampires are stupid. Throw rocks at them

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    It is difficult to show sympathy when you are busy fighting for your unlife against someone whom you have trusted, whose life you have saved twice and who has betrayed you in a very not sympathetic way.

    flow
     
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  11. TriBel

    TriBel Potential

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    I thought Spike was harsh but I also thought Robin Wood was extremely manipulative. He was shown to be manipulative before he meet Spike. He orchestrated his move to Sunnydale; he gave Buffy a job under false pretences. He kept secrets from her and let her think he might be evil. He conspired with Giles and I'm even less convinced than @white avenger that Giles' motives were honourable. He manipulated Spike into the garage just as Giles conned Buffy into staying in the cemetery. Wood's obsessiveness was shown by the number of crucifixes hanging in the garage.
    Robin had spent over 20 years looking for a mother that didn't exist. Spike himself had spent 120 years under similar circumstances - allowing his love/hatred for his mother to determine the outcome of his life. "It's been weighing on me for some time" was an understatement. In fact, there are other similarities between Spike and Wood. Wood dating Buffy and then sleeping with Faith indicates a similar obsession with Slayers as Spike. Faith's treatment of Wood the following morning testifies to the truth of Spike's statement - a slayer fights alone.

    The knowledge Spike gave Wood was no different than the knowledge a client would arrive at after psychotherapy. What Wood does with the knowledge is down to him. Spike's killing of Nikki was, as far as Spike was concerned, professional - they were playing by a set of rules that Nikki was aware of. As for the coat, we don't know that Wood wanted it as a memento of his mother - if there are similarities between him and Spike then he could simply have wanted it as a trophy. So yes - Spike was harsh but not necessarily wrong in what he did. TBH, long term, I think he does Wood a favour.
     
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  12. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    Just for the record, I see a HUGE difference between this and if Angelus had murdered Joyce, took a keepsake of hers ("It just looks good on me, what do you think, Buff?"), and kept wearing it, especially knowing what it would mean to Buffy.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
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  13. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    I firmly believe that, if there had been no trigger, if Spike never had been manipulated by the First Evil, Giles would still have found some excuse to attempt to keep any sort of relationship from developing between Buffy and Spike. "Even if you are no longer intimate with him, I want so much more for you..." pretty much sums it up. Whatever "so much more" wound up being, Giles absolutely did not want Buffy and Spike together.

    And I find it ironic, not to mention a bit hypocritical, for Giles to abandon Buffy in the emotional state that she was in in Season 6, on the pretext that she was too dependent on him to make all the hard decisions, then come back in Season 7 and still think that he had any right to second guess or override Buffy's decisions and orders.

    I would really have liked to have a scene where Giles, Willow, and Xander came to Buffy after the battle and admit that she had been right all along about Spike, that her judgement had been far more valid than theirs had been in the matter, and actually apologize for doubting and betraying her.
     
    thrasherpix: And I'd like to see how Buffy knew Spike wasn't going to attack them while he had a trigger...maybe a spell she couldn't tell them about, but "plot armor" works just fine, apparently.
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  14. sosa lola

    sosa lola Scooby

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    I don't remember Xander and Willow doubting Buffy about Spike after Xander came up with the trigger theory. They were more supportive about Buffy's decisions regarding Spike than Dawn and Anya (who were always viewed by fans as Spike sympathizers.)

    But I agree that the betrayal of Empty Places needed an aftermath scene between Buffy, Xander, Willow and Giles.
     
  15. Priceless

    Priceless I am now

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    I'm not sure it does. I think in the great scheme of things it doesn't matter. It's similar to Xander's 'kick his ass' line, when they bring it up 5 years later, it absolutely did not matter. Things that seem huge (personal betrayal) compared with what is really huge (fighting The First) is perhaps partly what Empty Places is about
     
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  16. sosa lola

    sosa lola Scooby

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    I don't really feel that the last scene between Buffy/Xander/Willow/Giles was as heartwarming and sincere as Joss wanted it to be when a huge elephant plot was never dealt with. The problem with S7 especially from mid to last episode is that we don't really know what the characters feel or think about each other. They don't talk. It's just so sad the way the core four relationship was mistreated and such a slap in the face of the fans who adore it.
     
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  17. Icarium

    Icarium Scooby

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    Following this logic murder is fine and dandy because we are going to die some day anyway. If some vampire had killed Buffy do you think Spike wouldn't have vowed revenge?

    Honestly, that whole storyline is complete shit and everyone behaves as a truly brainless moron. Spike for ignoring the trigger (I hate him but he really doesn't like being someone's puppet so his disregard of the danger made no sense), Buffy for babbling about trusting Spike when the whole point of the trigger was overriding Spikey's free will, Robin for not using a more reliable method of getting rid of Spike, Giles for approving Robin's stupid plan. But that's what happens when characterization becomes a footnote in the attempt to get the plot from point A to point B (and what a stupid plot it was too).

    And of course, it also showed how much Spike had becoem a joke defined by fans unwilling to see him change his dumb, I mean, iconic appearance. Oh, he is raving mad but found time to bleach his hair because god forbid we change his "sexy" image. Then he needs the stupid coat because why exactly? He can only fight well wearing it? Is it magical or he is that immature? Wait, don't answer that.
     
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  18. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    ( thrasherpix: And I'd like to see how Buffy knew Spike wasn't going to attack them while he had a trigger...maybe a spell she couldn't tell them about, but "plot armor" works just fine, apparently.)

    I would have to say that Buffy's instinctive trust in Spike in Season 7 was pretty much the same as her instinctive trust of Angel when he returned in Season 3. In both instances, she was thinking far more with her heart than her mind. In both cases, the end result could just as easily have been utter disaster. The major difference in the two events seems to me to be that, in Season 3, she initially tried to conceal Angel's return, whereas in Season 7, as soon as she discovered about Spike's soul, she immediately informed her friends and left no doubt that she believed Spike to be trustworthy.

    Buffy forgave Angel, and trusted him totally, when he returned in Season 3, and I guess she just felt that she could do no less for Spike in Season 7, once she found out about his soul. Her judgement might seem questionable to many, but it's hard to deny that it was totally in character for Buffy.
     
  19. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    Another major difference is that when Angel was fighting rage fits, intense trauma resulting in a feral nature and having problems with self-control, she kept Angel in chains while researching a way to help him (and she did not let him go until he broke free and saved her, and then said her name showing he was regaining his equilibrium--true, Angel could've relapsed, but she probably didn't think of that), whereas she let Spike have free reign with a trigger in him that he could not control. Had Spike been triggered and killed people then it would not be Spike's fault. It would be Buffy's. But thank goodness for plot armor.

    I'm gonna have to go with Icarium on this one. Despite a few gems and promising beginning, season 7 was an utter mess story-wise, character-wise, and plot-wise.
     
  20. Taake

    Taake Bella Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    I can just see it now... "I'm sorry sir, please sir, if it's not too much trouble sir, may I have the trophy you took off of my mother's corpse after killing her, sir? Why, thank you kind, good sir. Let's forget all about that pesky past of yours, I'm totally cool having grown up without a mother, please rub it in or make a snarky comment about it."

    Maybe Holtz on Angel should just politely have asked for an apology and let bygones be bygones?
     
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