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Even as a Spike fan i found Spike's behaviour in 'Lies my parents told me' to be despicableHow fo

Discussion in 'Season 7' started by TamsinValencia, Sep 2, 2017.

  1. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Spike would've rained hell down upon the person that killed Buffy as soon as he laid eyes on them. Robin didn't. He didn't attack Spike in a fit of emotional rage, instead he was cold and calculating, deliberately planning to get Spike on his own so he could set off the trigger . What do you think he would've said if he'd actually dusted Spike and Buffy asked him about it, I doubt he'd tell the truth. He'd probably spin some yarn about how Spike suddenly attacked him unprovoked and that he was only defending himself. Buffy would assume it was because the First activated the trigger and therefore Robin was blameless.

    What makes Robin truly unsympathetic IMO is the fact that once he'd failed in his revenge attempt and Buffy had told him she wasn't going to stand for it, he deliberately turns on Buffy. He merrily jumped aboard the bandwagon for the mutiny despite respecting her before his attempt on Spike's life. Robin basically threw his dummy out of the pram because he didn't get his own way.
     
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  2. Icarium

    Icarium Scooby

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    Well, yes, Robin had taken a large dose of the stupid pills, just like everyone else in S7, but there was also the small matter of Spike being much stronger than him, so it's hardly surprising that he had to use sneakier means to try to stake him.

    Or maybe he honestly thought Buffy's dumb plan was, well, dumb? Just because it succeeded by writer fiat (and because The First and Caleb were dumber than a box of rocks) doesn't mean it was anything but a terrible, suicidally stupid plan. And even if he didn't think so, why the hell shouldn't he turn on Buffy who from his point of view is sheltering the murderer of his mother? It would have been bizarre not to turn on her. Sort of like the bizarre scene where Buffy was shocked that he fired her.
     
  3. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Because at that point in time, Buffy was the only thing standing between The First and the destruction of the world.
     
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  4. flow

    flow Male Vampires are stupid. Throw rocks at them

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    What about "Hey dude, I hate to see you in that coat ?" Wouldn`t have killed Robin and if Spike would have made a snarky comment about that, I`d be the first to throw stones at him.

    Maybe Angel should just let himself be dusted, because that is obviously what many people expect of Spike when he meets Robin.

    There is one thing I can not understand. I am a fan of Robin. I really like his character. I think he is brave, a brilliant fighter, handsome and has this I-am-a-good-guy-but-in-a-very-cool-way approach. I can completely understand, why he tries to kill Spike because it is the most natural thing for him to do and Spike would be the first one to admit that.

    It still isn`t the right thing to do, though. It is utterly wrong and Spike is right to defend himself. But in my opinion the attempt does not destroy or even dimish Robins characterm and he shows inner greatness when he offers Buffy to put aside his vengeance and to continue to fight by her side.

    But I never hear anyone else but myself praising Robin. He is maybe not the most hated character. That would be Riley. But he is the most underrated and most forgotten character. I remember a thread a couple of weeks ago wher you could rank Faith`s love interest. There were five or six names to choose from and Robin - the only being she ever had a relationship with, that lastetd longer than it takes to make out - was not even on that list.

    But when it comes to an old and worn and torn and thirty years old leather coat that might never have had any special meaning to Nikki and was probably a bit oversized for her anyway, everyone cries out in sympathy for Robin.

    I dare you all, to tell me, how much you admire, adore and love Robin. I really want to know !

    flow
     
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  5. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    It's not about loving Robin or how good a character Robin is, I'm on Robin's side because he's the one who had his mother taken from him and then denied the right to any sort of compensation.
    That's extremely insensitive, I'm sure if someone killed your loved one and had the nerve to wear their belongings you'd have little sympathy for that person too.
     
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  6. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    But Spike was not having any such "rage fits, intense trauma resulting in a feral nature and having problems with self-control," he was pretty much in control of himself, after he revealed to Buffy that he had a soul. He was acting as normally as Spike ever does act at that point, as far as anyone knew. Then, once the fact that the First Evil could control him, he actually was in chains, except when Buffy was nearby, until the point where his trigger was identified. Would he have continued to willingly chain himself up after that point? We'll never know, because immediately after that, Wood hatched his scheme with Giles to keep Buffy busy while he tried to stake Spike (a move which, in and of itself, seems kind of lame to me, considering the conditions that he set up. Locked in alone with a master vampire who was potentially overcome in a killing rage, with nothing more than a couple of metal pads on his fists? Granted, Spike's flashback pretty much incapacitated him momentarily, but it never had had that effect before, and Wood couldn't have had a clue that it would work when he activated the trigger. Take your pick, Robin Wood was either suicidal, or dumb as a stump)

    More like, "Spike, I know you're not aware of the fact, but the Slayer who you killed in New York was my mother." If he had simply had the good sense to say something like that, Spike actually might, and I emphasize, MIGHT, have given him the coat, especially since he hadn't started wearing it yet. He certainly realized that the ensouled vampire to whom he would have been speaking wasn't the monster who killed his mother. He said that himself. (Yes, I know, Spike did put it on very soon after the F E made the great reveal, but that would still have been possible prior to the murder attempt) And I reiterate, Robin Wood must have been either suicidal, or dumb as a stump.

    I think that Robin simply had the hots for Slayers, maybe because of his mommy fixation. He was clearly coming on to Buffy from the first moment that he laid eyes on her, up until he became aware that she was working with Spike, then immediately reset his sights on Faith, once again, almost as soon as he laid eyes on her. The opportunity to oust Buffy, the "tainted" Slayer, couldn't have come at a more fortuitous time if some script writer was setting the whole thing up. As proof of that, what was all that, "I came up here to talk about weapons..." line when he KNEW that she had just arrived in town? If he needed to talk about weapons with anyone, it obviously should have been Giles, the man he knew to be a Watcher, and having personal knowledge of a Watcher's traditional role with Slayers.
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 5, 2017 ---
    At what point did this happen? I remember Buffy telling him that if he ever tried anything with Spike again, she would let Spike kill him, and I remember Robin continuing to work with the team only after joining in an attempt to oust Buffy as leader, which ultimately failed, but I don't recall any offer to put aside anything, except under fear of being killed, most likely in a very painful and messy fashion, by Spike, with Buffy's permission.
     
  7. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    Robin isn't dumb!
    Would you call Giles going after Angelus in 'passion' dumb? Robin wasn't dumb, he was willing to die for the chance to put his mother's killer back into hell. Which I respect :(
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 5, 2017 ---
    Wow Robin should have been so grateful that even after asking, Spike might have given the coat to him :rolleyes:
     
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  8. flow

    flow Male Vampires are stupid. Throw rocks at them

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    Murdering someone is a compensation ?

    Of course I would have no sympathy at all for that person. I don`t expect sympathy from Robin. As I said, I can completely understand his motives.But that doesn`t mean, Spike has to let himself be killed by Robin without defending himself.

    flow
     
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  9. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Of course Giles was stupid. Buffy told him so herself. But what Giles did was in a fit of passion, immediately after he found Jenny's body. What Wood did was cold blooded, calculating revenge. And dumb.

    We'll never know, now will we? But, as I pointed out, at that moment, Spike hadn't started wearing the coat again, so he might very well have felt more inclined to part with it, since it represented a part of his life that he was trying to leave behind.

    No, he was willing to kill an innocent man, ensouled Spike, to extract vengeance on a monster, soulless Spike, who wasn't really part of what Spike had become. The Buffyverse has established that an ensouled vampire is a totally different character than his soulless counterpart. Spike in Season 7 was no more guilty of killing Nikki Wood than Angel in Season 3 was guilty of killing Jenny Calendar, and Robin Wood knew that. Also, he knew that Spike was the strongest fighter Buffy had on her side against a being of incalculable power. In addition to everything else, Robin was willing to literally put the whole world in jeopardy for the sake of his personal vendetta against a creature who no longer even existed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
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  10. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    Spike does have the right to defend himself, he doesn't have the right to keep wearing Nikki's coat, tell Robin that his mother didn't love him, and then threaten to kill Robin at the end. Maybe sympathy wasn't the right word, it should be mercy. I don't expect Robin to have any more mercy on Spike than he did considering the context, but I do expect Spike to have more mercy on Robin considering the context.
     
  11. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Giles reacted emotionally. He wasn't thinking when he stormed over to the vampires' hideout where 3 members of the Whirlwind resided (You could even argue Spike inadvertently saved Giles' life by keeping Drusilla out of the fray whilst Giles was beating up Angelus.)

    Robin didn't have that emotional knee jerk reaction, he was cold and calculated and an idiot.
     
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  12. flow

    flow Male Vampires are stupid. Throw rocks at them

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    This Scene is from Dirty Girls. And the offer is more or less made by Buffy, but Robin accepts it.

    BUFFY
    You look better.

    ROBIN WOOD
    (without looking up) No, I don't.

    BUFFY
    (smiles) No, you don't.

    ROBIN WOOD
    But I'll be OK. Unless, of course, you start beating up on me now.

    BUFFY
    I won't. (shrugs) Well, I thought about it. I made some doodles. As far as I'm concerned, we're on even ground. I meant what I said. I don't have time for your vendetta, but I need you in this fight. I want you on my side.

    ROBIN WOOD
    Thanks. That means a lot.

    BUFFY
    So, we're good?

    ROBIN WOOD
    (looks at Buffy) Absolutely. (Buffy sighs) You're fired.

    flow
     
  13. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    Robin's been having a constant emotional reaction to Nikki's death since he was 4 years old, he grew bitter and more cold and that's understandable.
     
  14. flow

    flow Male Vampires are stupid. Throw rocks at them

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    Again: Spike has saved Robins life twice, he has trusted him as an ally and friend of Buffy, he has followed him into a trap because of that trust. He has been doublecrossed in a very literally way, if you consider all the crosses on the wall. he has nearly been killed. And this is the Situation, in which you expect mercy. maybe you could just give him a second, to lick his own wounds. He told Robin that Nikki to Nikki the Mission meant more than her son and Robin did not deny that himslef. He was talking to Buffy - not to Robin - when he talked about killing Robin, if Robin tried to kill him again. He did not threaten to kill Robin for fun or whenever he chooses to. he simply stated, that the next time Robin tried to kill him, the fight would be to the death. I can see nothing merciless in that.

    flow
     
  15. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Saying "We're good," is hardly an offer to put aside old differences, or new ones, as the case might be. It's simply ceasing hostilities for the moment. Not quite the same thing, especially when followed by, "and you're fired." That's Trump's line. Robin needs to get one of his own.

    Exactly. Bitter and cold. Not overcome with initial rage. Vengeance anticipated and savored for decades, carefully planned out, but stupidly executed. Any vampire, ANY vampire, capable of taking down a Slayed one-on-one, is not someone you are going to be able to kill without having a really large number of aces up your sleeve, which Robin quite obviously did not.
     
  16. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    That's just not the truth though, Nikki was not given the choice between her son and the mission, because the mission was forced on her. Nikki could not just give up slaying and be with her son no matter how much she wanted to and just like how Buffy would rather be a normal teenager than a slayer, Nikki would rather be with her son than slay. But that's not her choice is it? So how has Nikki said that the mission means more to her than her son? Either way, it is nowhere near Spike's place, as Nikki's killer, to be telling Robin how she felt and I found it cruel.

    Spike actually said that the next time Robin does so much as give him a funny look he'll kill him- am I just meant to assume that's some sort of sick joke?

    And honestly, Spike beat Robin to a degree that was far more than just Spike defending himself, he hit more than he had to. That's not merciful at all.
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 5, 2017 ---
    Well that's what having your mother killed at the age of 4 can do to you- I don't expect Robin to even be sane after that, let alone someone that can think outside of bitter revenge.
    That's true, and Robin is aware of that but it doesn't change anything. Robin is still willing to try and die for it that's what he's willing to do for his mum.
     
  17. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Robin was raised and trained by his mother's former Watcher. I seriously doubt that the man who raised him would have trained anyone who he considered insane to the point of being suicidal. I just can't see any Watcher being that irresponsible.

    If Robin was so obsessed with revenge that he had been dwelling on and planning for this one great moment for over 3 decades, he most certainly should have come up with a plan that did NOT get him killed in the process. Simply dousing Spike with gasoline and tossing a match on him would have been better than what he tried, though I'm obviously glad that that never occurred to him. Revenge is something that has to be savored after the fact. Dying unnecessarily in the process, not even living long enough to see the final outcome, just doesn't make any sense. Once more I say, Robin Wood was either suicidal or dumb as a stump.
     
  18. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    I'm not saying I believe that Robin is insane I'm saying that I don't understand why Robin being cold and bitter is used as an insult to Robin. Those wounds of losing a parent aren't easy to heal growing up so of course he's messed up and has mummy issues, that's on the person who killed his mother. Robin is also not suicidal in general, but after coming into contact with Spike the fact that Spike can kill him in this fight means little to him.

    That would not be satisying enough for Robin, and that would also not be a fair fight. Not that Robin was fair in the fight that he actually set up, but I think he'd like to believe that he defeated Spike in a fight instead of just killing him in a cowardly way, like something anyone could pull off.
     
  19. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Being cold and bitter is no excuse for a plan both poorly prepared and badly executed. He's waited 30 plus years for this moment. He couldn't come up with something that had even a small chance of succeeding? He doesn't just want to confront and accuse Spike, he wants to know the satisfaction of destroying him. He had just seen Spike single handedly kill a demon only slightly less intimidating than the Incredible Hulk, and he thinks that he has any chance whatsoever of beating him hand to hand. If that isn't either insane or willfully suicidal, what is?

    I'd like to believe that I could defeat Chuck Norris, if I was mad enough, and my cause was justifiable, but I'm bright enough to know that it just ain't gonna happen. It's not being cowardly to take out a much more powerful opponent from a distance with a sniper rifle, or, in Wood's case, a crossbow, it's just good sense.
     
  20. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    Yeah, Robin could have killed Spike with any of those weapons you mentioned but that wouldn't have been enough for him, I think he physically wanted to harm the spike that killed Nikki (specifically which is why he needed to trigger the hiding Spike) so to do that he couldn't just kill him in the most efficient way, it had to be something elaborate. I can understand why he'd want to take Spike out himself hands on, even if he'd have been better off doing it another way. The point is I just found it harsh to call Robin dumb, people do stupid things when they're that messed up but it's not always a sign of stupidity.