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" faced with the same choice now, you'd let her die"

Discussion in 'Season 7' started by YummySushiPJs, Mar 17, 2017.

  1. YummySushiPJs

    YummySushiPJs Scooby

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    You just gave me a flash of an alternate ending

    All the characters stand on the road staring into the giant pit where Sunnydale once was.
    Dawn:
    Yeah Buffy. What ARE we going to do now?
    Buffy: I'll tell you what we're going to do. We're going to keep on fighting. It's NEVER over guys. The evil keeps coming and it keeps getting stronger. But so do we. I'm not saying it won't be hard. And painful. We've come this far. The hardest thing in this world is.... guys? Guys? What are you doing?
    One by one each of the Scoobies walks towards and jumps into the pit.
     
    Mylie: I'm laughing! Amazing!
    thetopher: LOL Death was the ultimate release from speechifying!
    BuffyBot22, Fuffy Baith, Dora and 8 others like this.
  2. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    I've always thought that Buffy's obsession with keeping Dawn alive, regardless of everything else, was an integral part of the spell. The monks who cast it obviously considered keeping the Key safe from Glory more important than their own lives, and, no doubt, the lives of others who probably died during the process of locating the Slayer and getting the Key to her to be protected. It wouldn't be too great a stretch of the imagination that that feeling was included in the spell, either intentionally or by accident.

    On that note, I can't help but wonder if Spike were somehow included in the spell, again, either by intent or by accident. I don't really think that it was a coincidence that the two most powerful fighters available were the two most concerned with protecting Dawn. (And before anyone says it, I totally reject the idea that Spike was protective of Dawn just to get on Buffy's good side. If that were his only excuse, he would have had no reason to stay with the gang after Buffy died)
     
  3. YummySushiPJs

    YummySushiPJs Scooby

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    I think you're right White Avenger... I'm almost certain it was stated or implied at some point that the spell which created Dawn included a sort of "charm" that made the people around her feel compelled to protect her (not just Buffy). Maybe I'm making that up?
     
  4. GraceK

    GraceK Grr Arrg

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    That's a very interesting theory. I like the idea that the spell not only planted memories, but also planted that extreme attachment.
     
  5. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    And the thing about the speeches...why have Andrew make fun of them? It's like breaking the 4th wall in a bad way. You can't write these lame ass speeches and then make fun of the fact that they are lame ass speeches. Because here is an easy solution to that, just DON'T write any more speeches.
     
  6. ChaseRules

    ChaseRules When it comes to dating I the Slayer.

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    Sineya
    I agree . There needed to be way more episodes & too many people in there to really give them any background.
     
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  7. Bluebird

    Bluebird two by two, hands of blue

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    Black Thorn
    I get it. Even now when I watch the season, it feels off. It looks like Buffy, the characters have the same names and whatnot, but it feels hollow.
     
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  8. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    S7's best episodes all came BEFORE the 7th episode. That's why when people think of S7 they think of all the garbage and not some of the better episodes of the season.
     
    ChaseRules: You have a good point there :)
    sosa lola: I agree! Him was the last good episode.
  9. Anyanka Bunny Killer

    Anyanka Bunny Killer Jotunheim

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    Black Thorn
    Perhaps the monks' spell grew weaker after Ben/Glory died? Or...maybe Buffy finally realised that she's held Dawn responsible for Joyce's death?
     
  10. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    I wonder if we're making more of Buffy's statement than we really should, and the same might be implied about her "I'll let him," comment to Wood about Spike killing him. Sure, she said both things, but we're talking about Buffy, here. Could anyone really imagine our Buffy at that point in her life standing back and letting anyone die if she could prevent it? This is the girl who got the spangly umbrella for high school graduation. Protecting people is what she does. Remember when she went to LA to warn Angel, and wound up helping the girl who had sided with the Mayor in an attempt to end the world, threatened to kill her mother, stolen her body, shagged her boyfriend, and emptied her bank account just a few weeks earlier.

    Buffy simply doesn't "let" people die. She either kills them herself, or stops anyone else from doing it. Most likely, she was just trying to impress Giles with how much she had "matured" while he was gone.
     
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  11. ChaseRules

    ChaseRules When it comes to dating I the Slayer.

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    Sineya
    I think you are right . After all Giles had left her because he though she need ed to grow up so that could be it .
     
  12. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    Absolutely. If she has no issues tossing innocent people out of their own home to their death in the middle of the night or being ok with everyone in her house ending up as lunch should her snuggle bunny break lose and get triggered, I don't see why I shouldn't take all her other comments as anything but fact. Would she let Spike kill Wood? Apparently, since she is fine with Spike killing everyone, otherwise she wouldn't have him in her house. Letting Dawn die is different in that Dawn would simply be sacrificing herself, however Dawn doesn't seem to be an interest of Buffy's anymore anyway.
     
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  13. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

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    I also never thought Buffy would ever do what she did to the potentials in Potential and yet she did. Good thing it turned out well for her because wtf? It's like what happened to her in helpless was a blip on her radar. God I really have troubles with season 7 Buffy. Season 6 I can always blame it on her depression but season 7 I have nothing.
     
  14. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Never thought Buffy would do to thousands of women and girls what for so long she lamented was done to herself. Yet, there it was. So... yeah, I think Buffy would certainly let innocent lives die if it served her purpose.
     
  15. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    I have to agree. Buffy HAD changed in terms of her priorities; Spike and the trigger proved that. She said so many things in S7 that were awful and yet she meant them.
    She called Chloe - a frightened girl- an idiot for committing suicide. She said she'd been 'carrying' the rest of them too far too long, she said that Giles had nothing left to teach her, she calls the Potentials 'children' and yet leads them into battle, she said that Spike was the only one watching her back after getting back from the hospital where Xander had been permanently crippled fighting for her, she said that the mission is what matters.
    She was wrong in saying all these things but she still meant them.

    So it was clear that Buffy had changed, and it hadn't been a good change.
     
  16. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Actually, if she had changed all that much, she would have staked Spike as soon as she realized that he presented a threat. She didn't, and she went so far as to forbid anyone else to harm him. her faith in him, rightly so, as it turned out, was a major factor in winning the final battle.

    Chloe committing suicide had nothing to do with any attitude change by Buffy, and her statement that she was an idiot for doing so could have just as easily been out of anger and frustration that the girl didn't come to her (actually, gave up before ever even getting there, as it turned out) rather than let the First Evil talk her into suicide. Maybe she was even recalling how close Angel came to doing the exact same stupid thing years earlier. She was there to prevent him from making that mistake. Quite likely, she felt that, if she had been able to actually talk to Chloe, she could have been able to do the same thing again.

    Well, hadn't she? She did all the patrolling, took all the risks, suffered all the pain, while the Potentials sat safely in her home, eating her food, enjoying her protection, and still having the nerve to complain about the one person who was, literally, standing between them and certain death.

    Xander and some of the other girls were injured, some had even been killed, in that one battle. Up until that moment, none of them had been in very much, if any, action all Season, certainly nothing that would qualify as watching Buffy's back. Maybe it was something of an exaggeration to say or imply that Spike always had her back, but he was the one who, when not under the First Evil's direct control, had not betrayed her in the way that Giles, to whom she was speaking at that moment, had done.

    And that is exactly what Wood's mother had told him, and what, most likely, had been drummed into the heads of every single Slayer throughout history. Still, on several occasions, both before and after saying that, Buffy has gone contrary to that very statement. Besides which, she was trying to make a point with the man who had just tried, despite her specific orders to the contrary, to kill someone who was under her protection and who she considered to be the strongest fighter under her command, and whose loyalty to her, she never doubted..

    No, she was not wrong in anything that she said. A leader, especially in a critical situation, must appear to be strong and decisive at all times. She was the one in charge, she was the one who made the final decisions, and she was the one who gave the orders. That's how leadership works. The only time Buffy, as a leader, made a real mistake, was when she allowed the Potentials, Faith, Robin, Dawn, and the people who were supposed to be her friends to defy her orders and deny her leadership. In retrospect, Buffy would have been wiser to have taken Faith and the Scoobies aside, discussed her plans, asked for suggestions, and made sure that she had their support before ever announcing her plans to return to the vineyard, but that was her only real mistake in the entire affair, with the exception of listening to Wood's suggestion that she take the girls into battle before she was sure that they were ready. And isn't it strange that the only one to remain unquestionably loyal to her throughout everything (one might even say, the only one who was watching her back) was Spike?
     
    ChaseRules: I behind everything you said :)
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  17. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    No no, Spike was innocent so Buffy would give him a chance- I get that.
    But letting him wander around instead of keeping him chained up? Old Buffy would've never been that reckless.

    I disagree. Buffy said it, she clearly meant it, and she never retracted her sentiment about what she thought.
    Hey, remember when Buffy showed compassion towards victims of evil instead of insulting their memory?

    Nope, she spent the previous episode dating Wood as I recall. She hadn't been 'carrying them all', in fact it was Giles who warned them all about the dangers of being lax. He was the one taking the Potentials to get their vision on. Shouldn't Buffy have been doing those vital things?

    Anya was right, Buffy's 'everybody sucks but me' speech was crappy. If Buffy had admitted her own mistakes then I might have some sympathy, but she just comes across as cold.

    Right, so researching like Dawn or spell-casting like Willow or repairing the house and being moral officer like Xander isn't considered help? That's good to know.

    I remember when Buffy valued things other than some guy who can punch things. She valued her friends.

    Buffy said it. She meant it- about EVERYONE. Including people who were busily getting info on Caleb whilst Spike was sitting on his ass in the basement. Hell, Giles actually sent Spike on the crucial mission that confirmed who Caleb was, what he was after and where it was being held. This is called intelligence-gathering. Not that that matters to Buffy at all.

    And Giles didn't 'betray' Buffy, he simply put the mission first and tried to eliminate an agent of the First, which is what Spike was at that time. After trying to cure him by the way, which is something that Buffy never even bothers to acknowledge.

    'Betrayal' is taking it personally and not recognizing that the mission is what matters.

    Buffy was crappy to Faith- who was there to help- in a way that suggested that Buffy wasn't being entirely professional about things. I could even suggest that she was being petty and personal when it was not needed. That makes her a hypocrite and that's actually good.
    The mission is not all that matters, as Buffy herself eventually discovers when she pulls her head out of her ass and realizes that she isn't in the fight alone. That other people are trying to help her and have their lives on the line as well.

    Wrong. She was wrong in everything that she said as above. S7 Buffy is sort-of this heartless, hypocritical caricature of normal Buffy.

    Actually that's merely part of leadership.
    Leadership is listening to other people and taking their advice- something that 'old Buffy' has done many times over with thunderous success- otherwise she never would've beaten Glory or Adam or anybody really.

    Not really true since I've shown how she made a whole bunch of tactical mistakes; trusting Spike whilst no securing him knowing he was an agent of the First Evil, alienating her friends, treating the Potentials like canon fodder (hell, she even admitted that one) and simply acting like the Bufyf of old- the girl who could utilize her friends to the best of their

    Maybe Buffy would've been better served of collecting intelligence on her enemy before trying to do the same damn thing that had failed so spectacularly the first time.
    I mean, I'm not the leader she is but that seems like a good plan- not doing the thing that failed before. Who is Caleb? What does he want? How do we defeat him? All important questions but Buffy knew NONE of this and still wanted to go up against him and fight him.

    This is something that Buffy had never done before, if she got the crap beaten out of her then she refocused and tried something different, whether its going up against Angelus with a magic sword and a surprise ally, Faith with her own knife, or Adam with a mighty morphin' slayer spell, Buffy's strength has always been her flexibility not her rigidity.

    Not really that strange since that was the whole point of the season. Spike as plot-device. Buffy's friends are crap and her white-knight Spike will always remain loyal. I mean, they had to twist the plot into a pretzel to make it work, and also- as I've said- make Buffy into a rather idiotic, cruddy individual.

    Of course you could argue that Spike set a lot of this in motion what with his weird co-dependence thing with Buffy and how he enabled her by never questioning her increasingly erratic decisions (The demon that gave him his soul removed his spine. True story). Buffy could always count on him. No doubt if Buffy had gone through with 'the vineyard assault' mark 2 and other people had died (which would've happened even if success had been achieved) then Spike would've no doubt desperately tried to pep Buffy out of her ensuing mental breakdown
     
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  18. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    Haha. You act like Buffy would ever stake Spike. If she hadn't done it between S2-6 when he posed a clear threat, it was never going to happen.

    Just because decisions magically turn out alright, doesn't make them right.


    Now I might remember this wrong but didn't Buffy have a vision of Chloe and didn't do a damn thing about it? Maybe she should have gotten off her ass and saved Chloe, like she did Angel, from committing suicide. But she doesn't care about human life at this point so why should she.


    Well it might have helped if Buffy hadn't been so freaking bi-polar about what she wants. She complains about them not doing enough one episode and the next she tells them to stay out of it because they are useless anyway.



    Willow and Xander, and even Giles, have been there helping Buffy since the first episode. Buffy wouldn't even have made it past the first episode or Season without Xander. Up until S7 Spike was by all definitions a VILLAIN. Just because he sometimes did selfish things that turned out to be good for Buffy doesn't change that fact. If I had what Buffy said thrown at my face, I would have b*tch slapped her and then walked out. She only needs the guy who has been nothing but an ass (among other things) then I'm outta there. And the scoobies should have done that. How can a person be so ungrateful to people who have been there for 7 years?

    All BS. Buffy proved time and again that personal issues > mission. That's the problem with the writing. Especially in her dealings with Spike she showed that the mission doesn't matter. As for strongest fighter... against whom? Maybe Spike can attack Bringers but for everything else he is useless. Buffy can barely deal with a Turok-Han and the First is incorporeal. So for what exactly is Spike of use?

    I'm only going to answer that with Graduation Day Buffy vs S7 Buffy. Buffy can be an actual good leader. S7 was not one of those times.

    Why would that be strange? Even Steve Wonder would have seen that S7 is all about Spike, well when it's not all about Spuffy. And you actually give Spike credit for being a lapdog?
     
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  19. Zenseem

    Zenseem Evil, skanky and kinda gay

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    Black Thorn
    The only characters that made season 7 worth were Xander, Dawn and Anya. I feel like they were given a proper development while the rest of the characters were just left out.

    Buffy was annoying af the entire season and didn't give a shit about anyone besides herself and Spike.
    Willow was completely left out and the entire time it felt like she wasn't really there. I'd prefer her mourning over Tara than all invisible.
    And Faith didn't have enough screen time. I think if every single scene was focused just on Faith it still wouldn't be enough.
    And don't even get me started on Spike.
     
  20. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    Well Xander and Faith for me. The rest I wanted to push to their death into the crater formerly known as Sunnydale.

    Orpheus!Willow > all of S7 Willow and isn't that just a sad thing in and of itself.

    I still want to know what that thing was masquerading as Faith in S7. Where did S4 AtS Faith go?

    I wonder if there is some kind of soul/personality/brain sucking spell going on once you cross Sunnydale town limit. As soon as people leave the sign behind they become awesome (see Willow). Once they cross the sign into town again it's like instant suck (see Willow and Faith). Weird how that works.
     
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