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Happy Shiny Angel

Discussion in 'Season 4' started by gite63, Mar 18, 2016.

  1. gite63

    gite63 Gone

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    Sineya
    Angel was one of the "shiny happy people" for a while; why didn't he lost his soul?
     
  2. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    We saw Angel appear to be happy before under the influence of drugs but it was not true happiness. The "shiny happy people" of Jasmine's making were no more happy than Tara was under Willow's forgetfulness spell. Even when good things happened, it was mojo, not true happiness. It was like the Germans after WWII who excused Hitler by saying, "He made the trains and buses run on time." And we see a BMW driver cheerfully stop for a pedestrian at a crosswalk. That is seriously powerful mojo.
     
  3. gite63

    gite63 Gone

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    Sineya
    But the shaman mojo was an illusion and Angel lost the soul; he felt extremely happy, although any of those things were real. A drug makes you happy (for a while), but certainly it isn't true and completely happiness. But Jasmine's spell took all the burden from people, leaving only bliss (someone from Angel's Investigations said that, Gunn or Wesley I think). When th spell hit Angel for the first time, he could have lost his soul; later, he was ashamed that he hadn't protected Jasmine and upset about Fred's "betrayal".
     
  4. Sternbeeere

    Sternbeeere Glory´s sane(?) groupie

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    1. Perhaps "true happiness" and freewill are connected, meaning that true happiness can only occur in a free willed individual, and when you are on drugs or under a spell, you are not truly free.
    2. Maybe it has something to do with Jasmines spell itself, maybe it has a side effect that prevents the sinti and roma spell to lose power.
    3. The ninja spell, as far as I can see it, is not connected to neither they sinta and roma spell nor Jasmine, it is rather something that robs the soul out of the body. Presumably works with humans or other ensouled species as well
     
  5. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Well my understanding is that the moment of happiness has to come as a result of Angel having sex with a person he loves, it cannot come any other way I don't believe.
     
  6. Sternbeeere

    Sternbeeere Glory´s sane(?) groupie

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    Did not he have had Sex with Cordelia ? I think he loved her, did not he ?
     
  7. DoktorRock

    DoktorRock Potential

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    He had sex with Cordy in this vision quest in "Awakening", but not in reality. The result was the same, tough. He lost his soul.
     
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  8. Sternbeeere

    Sternbeeere Glory´s sane(?) groupie

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    Thanks, then i guess the spell is specifically linked to having sex with a beloved one.
     
  9. Bluebird

    Bluebird two by two, hands of blue

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    Black Thorn
    This is true, but as Awakening showed, he needed a lot more than that by season 4 to achieve perfect happiness. His 'family' was together again, he patches things up with Connor and Wes and they all work together to solve the problem. He even gets to play the quintessential hero with the sword. All that was needed in the spell for him to lose his soul. It wouldn't have worked, at that point in his life, otherwise.
     
  10. Sternbeeere

    Sternbeeere Glory´s sane(?) groupie

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    Interesting, that would mean, that what he had due to Jasmine is not true happiness. Personally, I think that what Jasmine gives to someone is not true happiness, rather a drug-like happiness, hence the withdrawal symptoms after her defeat, but that is just my opinion.
    Perhaps having sex with a beloved person is some kind of symbolic trigger to Angel, a culmination of all happiness he experiences before the actual event. When he had sex with Buffy, it was similar, he was with the girl he loved, had someone, whom he trusted, experienced something new, not being alone etc. Additionally, her friends accepted him, he got a task in doing good/fight against evil with the scoobies. etc.
     
  11. Bluebird

    Bluebird two by two, hands of blue

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    Black Thorn
    There's definitely a vibe of people being drugged with the Jasmine story, losing that euphoria and missing it and whatnot.

    In the moment he loses his soul with Cordelia he actually says 'Buffy' out loud. I believe the spell used his memories of losing his soul with Buffy, which is why it culminated in the sex scene, and him saying her name again. In reality and not the spell version of happiness, I don't think sex is required. Although the show tended to make out like it was just a sex thing, I guess to give him an excuse to brood so much. :p
     
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  12. Sternbeeere

    Sternbeeere Glory´s sane(?) groupie

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    This very interesting discussion made me watch the happy shiny people episode, in that Angel says, that he is afraid to allow happiness to be full, because he is afraid to lose his soul, maybe this is why he does not lose his soul then.
     
  13. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    I think the sex thing is just a convenience. If he only loses his soul by having sex with someone he loves, considering Buffy is out of the picture and Cordy/Angel never really happens, then his soul is safe. That way the writers don't really have to worry about Angelus. Throughout both shows we are continuously led to believe that while sex isn't the issue, sex with someone he loves is. Doesn't Wes tell Angel how rare it is to experience perfect happiness in a relationship? He doesn't lose his soul with Connor maybe because his baby is being hunted down and because of the difficulties of parenthood? Still, to me, considering how happy he was with Connor he should have lost his soul. It's not like in Surprise it was a perfect day... Obviously the writers didn't want Angel to lose his soul and kill his baby, so they ignore the issue.
    Also, to me, perfect happiness is something that requires reflection. Meaning, in order to feel absolute contentment/bliss he needs to think about it, the perfection comes from you taking a moment to enjoy/feel how happy you are. And in that case maybe free will is required. It also means that I think Surprise is the only episode where he lost his soul in a realistic way, after the sex, when he was just lying with Buffy. Losing the soul during an orgasm like the other times doesn't make a lot of sense. And I agree with what Bluebird said about Awakening.
     
  14. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    That's why I don't think there is any way Angel will ever loose his soul again unless it's via outside interference. The worry about what could happen is always there, even if it's just subconsciously. And as we saw in Awakening it takes much more now for Angel to be perfectly happy because he has been through so much crap on his own show. What it took for the shaman to be able to removie his sou will never come to pass. Basically all his relatonships have to be perfect (like with Connor), there is no more fighting because they rid the world of demons, his romantic life needs to be perfect (so to speak). Under those conditions he could probably loose his soul again but while one of those is possible, none of them will happen all at the same time. And they would need to.
     
  15. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    No, but all I was saying is that sex seems to always be the trigger. To the best of my knowledge Angel cannot lose his soul any other way. To me its quite clear that it is this romantic act with someone that Angel loves which is the trigger, and they stick to that rule throughout, so from that point of view I don't have an issue with it. Yes, once we find out there is some dramatic tension lost, but that's a different issue.
     
  16. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    But that's not the case in Awakening and neither was it in Surprise/Innocence. The sex is pretty much only a part of it. In Awakening the sex was just the final part that did it (and harkens back to Surprise with him saying 'Buffy'). There are other things shown in Awakening that all play into 'perfect happiness'. And all of these things would never happen at the same time, hence them needing a shaman to bring them about. If sex was really the only thing that could bring it about then he would have lost it right after orgasm with Buffy (he was asleep when he lost it), with Darla, with Eve and with Nina. It's been pretty much proven that sex is not the trigger.
     
  17. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Well no because in the case of him sleeping with Darla, Eve and Nina Angel didn't love those women so that's why he didn't lose his soul following sleeping with them. I don't claim to know the full details, but maybe the effects are not triggered until sometime after the act. I am almost certain than sex is the trigger though. I will have to rewatch Angel S4 before commenting further.
     
  18. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    The whole losing his soul from a moment of happiness (post Buffy) was all psychosomatic. That was proven within the context of the story.
     
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  19. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    No need to rewatch S4 of AtS. We've known since Innocence that it wasn't the sex. Uncle Enyos laid it all out for us. One moment where Angel forgets his guilt, one moment where the past doesn't plaegue him is enough to make the soul go away. Which means that Angel has to achieve peace of mind and soul. He had a purpose, he had Buffy's love despite her knowing what he is and what he has done. And Buffy of course gave him something precious. That's why in the aftermath of the sex he lost the soul (long after orgasm) because for that brief moment he had achieved peace of mind and soul. Or as Cordelia would say 'sheer contentment'.
     
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  20. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    So does that mean if he ever stopped fighting, and had a "normal" life away from fighting evil, he would lose his soul again?