1. Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Ten thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

Him and Help

Discussion in 'Season 7' started by Cordeliagirl, Apr 27, 2017.

  1. Cordeliagirl

    Cordeliagirl Oh, Buffy, we're sisters! With different hair.

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2017
    Messages:
    1,604
    Likes Received:
    360
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Themiscry, (Just Kidding)
    Reputation:
    783
    Sineya
    Him and Help, i think they shouldnt have Him episode and maybe Help episode is ok they should better, and shnould not have buffy, and Williow and Anya fell in love with RJ, he is Teenager. Should not Haveing buffy making out with RJ , what do you think?
     
  2. Fuffy Baith

    Fuffy Baith 2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2014
    Messages:
    3,627
    Likes Received:
    2,624
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    CA
    Reputation:
    4,798
    Sineya
    I actually enjoy Him. Lol. Help is great until the ending with the frat boys or whatever. We already did that in Reptile Boy and it didn't work the either. Lol.

    It is definitely inappropriate for Buffy to be straddling RJ making out with him. But she under a spell. I don't like the inclusion of Anya, because Him comes right after Selfless. Which was a great episode for Anyas character development, and then in Him she goes right back to being comedic relief. I don't like it.
     
    Spanish Flame and thetopher like this.
  3. Cordeliagirl

    Cordeliagirl Oh, Buffy, we're sisters! With different hair.

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2017
    Messages:
    1,604
    Likes Received:
    360
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Themiscry, (Just Kidding)
    Reputation:
    783
    Sineya
    Me too, but i thought Buffy and Williow and Anyawere too old for RJ.
     
    TamsinValencia likes this.
  4. Last Watcher

    Last Watcher Tweed Icon

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,847
    Likes Received:
    1,860
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Teabag Central
    Reputation:
    2,297
    Sineya
    I think that was the whole point.....The jacket was magical & made all the girls fall for him....appropriate or not.
    Buffy was too old & a staff member at the school......Anya was even older, & Willow was gay, but all of them were caught up in the snare.

    The only thing that doesn't work about the whole thing is if exposure to RJ wearing the jacket made Buffy, Dawn, Anya & Willow competative to the point of violence over his affections, then why wasn't the rest of the schools female population at each others throats as he had been wearing the jacket to school regularly?
     
  5. Cordeliagirl

    Cordeliagirl Oh, Buffy, we're sisters! With different hair.

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2017
    Messages:
    1,604
    Likes Received:
    360
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Themiscry, (Just Kidding)
    Reputation:
    783
    Sineya
    Probably they are not affected to it
     
  6. Fuffy Baith

    Fuffy Baith 2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2014
    Messages:
    3,627
    Likes Received:
    2,624
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    CA
    Reputation:
    4,798
    Sineya
    Exactly. That's sort of a plot hole. Maybe he just started wearing it, and maybe those more magically inclined are more exposed or something. That's my best guess. Lol
     
  7. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2016
    Messages:
    1,062
    Likes Received:
    834
    Gender:
    Female
    Reputation:
    849
    I thought Him had already been done in BBB, the only scene that made it stand out to me was with the rocket launcher (though there could've been so much fun had Willow successfully finished her spell...especially if the jacket continues to attract females...which presumably is possible given that Amy gets a woman to come onto Willow in season 6 and she's not even that powerful, at least not before the comics).

    'Course if they wanted to be a bit braver (and also mock themselves), have a female vampire turn RJ (as almost happened to Xander when he was the "beneficiary" of a love spell) and then everyone think that Buffy just likes him because he's a vampire (he'd be a very dangerous one with that jacket!). They could even make snarky lines about mistaking Buffy for another Buffybot.

    Of course it's inappropriate for Buffy to come onto RJ, both because of the ages involved and because of the authority Buffy had over him, but I didn't see the show promoting things like that (and Buffy comes off as cringe-worthy to me as she does because she has completely lost it). That said, I don't need shows to browbeat morals to me to enjoy them (in fact, that's a good way to annoy me, even if I happen to agree with the overall message, unless it feels natural to the characters and story as opposed to the writers preaching at me through the story and characters).


    Help was interesting, but other than curious about how it ended I wasn't really pulled into the story, and good observation about how the end was similar to Reptile Boy.
     
    Fuffy Baith likes this.
  8. Priceless

    Priceless I am now

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Messages:
    4,018
    Likes Received:
    3,547
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    UK
    Reputation:
    3,368
    Both these episodes were meant to represent one of the themes of S7, which was 'back to the beginning', which is why there are so many similarities to BBB and Reptile Boy. I liked these similarities, it made it feel like the show had come full circle
     
    TriBel and OccaQuokka like this.
  9. Taake

    Taake Bella Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    12,492
    Likes Received:
    6,719
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Stockholm, Swe
    Reputation:
    41,569
    Black Thorn
    Him is actually one of the episodes I really like of season 7, it just makes me laugh. It is quirky and fun, and Buffy has one of the best lines of the show
    [​IMG]
    It's great seeing the girls go nuts (even if it is a bit of a repetition of Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered, but Joss likes repeating stories so that's hardly news).

    Spike having to stop Buffy is also a hilarious scene.

    I don't really think Buffy, or Willow (maybe Anya is) are too old for RJ. He's Dawn's age so they're what, 4 years older? 3? They only seem older because Buffy has a job at the school which is insane to begin with ;)

    I honestly can't really remember Help, I remember the general idea, and I think one of the kids from Home Improvement was in that one? But otherwise it's a blank.
     
  10. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2013
    Messages:
    7,972
    Likes Received:
    5,935
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The Moot, England
    Reputation:
    14,539
    Sineya
    I like 'Him' even though its basic premise is a logic-fail; because how come Dawn, Buffy, Willow and Anya are the really the only ones affected by the jacket to an embarrassingly intense degree? Shouldn't it work on everyone with more or less the same level of extreme effect, and yet most of the girls around RJ react like fairly normal 'girls with crushes'.
    It's a good episode, just don't think about it too hard. It hasn't got the internal-consistency of BB&B even though it obviously draws inspiration from that.

    Help has a different theme, one more relevant to the up-coming season; that no matter how hard you try sometimes people die and you just can't save them. Obviously this will resonate in the coming war with Buffy and all the Potentials- and its telling that Dawn is really the one who realizes that its the 'trying that matters'; shows how much she's matured during her time on the show.
     
    Puppet and TriBel like this.
  11. Out for a walk

    Out for a walk 5 Words Or Less...

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2017
    Messages:
    145
    Likes Received:
    116
    Gender:
    Female
    Reputation:
    24
    I liked Him better than Help. The rocket launcher scene is probably one of the funniest scenes of the whole series. I also love at the end when they asked what Anya did to win him over....then she turns off the radio talking about a bank robber on the loose. :)
     
    TamsinValencia, GraceK and OccaQuokka like this.
  12. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2016
    Messages:
    1,062
    Likes Received:
    834
    Gender:
    Female
    Reputation:
    849
    No, Buffy should not be doing it with RJ both because she has authority over him and also because of the age difference (*), but in the story she was no in her right mind, nor were any of the others...and more importantly, no minors were molested or exploited in the making of the scene. It should not be perceived as encouraging such behavior (anymore than encouraging the use of rocket launchers to impress a guy). It's magical compulsion, not free will. Therefore I see no moral or ethical dilemmas involved in the episode having been made. (And if you want to get onto Anya for being "way too old" then you should also consider Angel with Buffy from previous seasons.)
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 8, 2017 ---
    * The ONLY reason I support laws that would make it illegal for say Willow go after RJ is based on the fact that kids can be easily manipulated and exploited (and many adults will inevitably seek to do so, sexually and otherwise, and there are plenty of parents who would exploit their own kids if they could--and many who do in defiance to the law). This is why minors are not allowed to sign contracts, vote, etc...and I personally take a similar dim view of military recruiters in high schools trying to groom kids to sign up as soon as they're legally able as I would if some porn company was doing the same. It is not about protecting the so-called "purity" of kids, nor does it mean that someone is bad for finding a teenager say like RJ or Dawn attractive. Kids are generally very interested in sex and may attempt to initiate it with those older, but that does not excuse an older guy--or gal--anymore than it would excuse the military from putting guns in the hands of kids and sending them to the front lines which many boys would think was cool until they got there (which all too many countries do, just as they can force underage girls into sexually serving soldiers or conquerors).

    I accept that we humans normally have many impulses, some contradictory and plenty that would be terrible or risky to act out, but what is important is the choices we make, and as adults we're expected to show more impulse control and better judgment than a kid, generally speaking. If kids are mature enough to make these decisions then it's unjust to keep them as minors and they should be allowed to vote, drive, not require permission to go the bathroom (as even many high schoolers do), join the army, own weapons as any adult, and in all ways be the adults because there is NO justification for treating them as second class citizens if your ONLY concern is to make sure they conform to some puritanical idea as opposed to protecting them from exploitation. Of course there are kids who are unusually mature (just as there are numerous adults way too immature and display poor judgment on a regular basis), but the law can't account for them so the "arbitrary age" is in place. Should a kid become emancipated at age 15, however, then I'd consider that person able to make adult decisions, and that would include to have sex with say someone in his or her 20s, and wouldn't necessarily see the older sexual partner in a bad light.

    And while I'm on the topic, let me just add how much I HATE that kids get put onto sexual offender d-bases because kids had nude pix on their phone, or because they had sex with other kids their own age, which is a generally a reflection of their poor judgment and weaker impulse control (this does not mean that they should be given a free pass to do these things, either, but putting them on the list shows that those who run these lists don't give a damn about the kids or their future). When kids are put on them for reasons like that then it's not about protecting kids, but about promoting a puritanical oppression onto society, and every time it happens I want to sign a petition to do away with such d-bases altogether.
     
    GraceK and Ethan Reigns like this.
  13. TamsinValencia

    TamsinValencia Townie

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    21
    Gender:
    Female
    Reputation:
    9
    i really liked the episode 'him' mostly because I thought it was relatable in the sense of falling in love with someone your not supposed to.
     
  14. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2016
    Messages:
    3,718
    Likes Received:
    2,917
    Gender:
    Female
    Reputation:
    2,598
    I actually didn't think Dawn was under a spell. Her crush on RJ was genuine.
     
    TamsinValencia likes this.
  15. TriBel

    TriBel Potential

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Messages:
    396
    Likes Received:
    589
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Manchester
    Reputation:
    313
    Agree. But also both episodes allude to poetry (RJ's brother suggests they're indicative of a "failed masculinity" (my euphemism - I think he was worried RJ might be gay) . Xander says this of Cassie's poems "Always a sign of pretentious inner turmoil". I presume in both cases the allusion is to Spike aka William the poet and alternative modes of expression. Traditionally, poetry's positioned as the highest form of art in term of speaking to the human condition. Cassie (again, I presume) is an allusion to Cassandra, the Greek Prophetess who had the power of prophecy but was cursed by Apollo so no-one believed her (ties in nicely with Spike's "No, you don't at the end").
     
    Bluebird, Priceless and GwenRaiden like this.
  16. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy "I wanna see how it ends"

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2017
    Messages:
    1,049
    Likes Received:
    1,225
    Gender:
    Male
    Reputation:
    532
    Sineya
    It was a genuine crush that got enhanced by the spell; Dawn isn't dumb enough to lay in front of a train without a supernatural influence.
     
    Puppet and Priceless like this.
  17. Priceless

    Priceless I am now

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Messages:
    4,018
    Likes Received:
    3,547
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    UK
    Reputation:
    3,368
    It seems to me that poetry played an increasing role in the show, and Buffy's love of poetry grew as she matured and her world view began to change and she and Spike became closer (but that might just be my wishful thinking :)).
     
  18. TriBel

    TriBel Potential

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Messages:
    396
    Likes Received:
    589
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Manchester
    Reputation:
    313
    I'm intrigued - give me some examples of her enthusiasm and prove it's not wishful thinking. :) It does become increasingly important (the Slam session he attends on the last night in AtS5, he teaches the Bugs about iambic pentameter and Dylan shares his enthusiasm for poetry and art (and TBH, I wasn't sure if Buffy felt excluded by this). It's occurred to me that she doesn't seem to have many interests (There was the Bronze and I've seen her jogging with an ipod but I've no idea what sort of music she'd have on it) - is the text suggesting Slaying is her whole life? I know he made a reference recently to Hill Street Blues (Yay!) and she didn't pick up on it. Maybe she has to live in the now? (I'm fairly sure I shouldn't have started discussing this here!).
     
    Priceless likes this.
  19. Priceless

    Priceless I am now

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Messages:
    4,018
    Likes Received:
    3,547
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    UK
    Reputation:
    3,368
    In Tough Love (S5) when Buffy drops out of college, we see her talking to her Professor;

    PROFESSOR: Is there something else?
    BUFFY: No. Yes. Yeah. Um ... I wanted to tell you ... how much I enjoyed this class. (resumes pulling at the slide projector) I mean, I know that I wasn't the best student, but ... I really learned a lot. Uh, and I really like poetry. (shot of her hands on the projector) I really do.

    The stuck slide pops out and goes flying across the room.

    BUFFY: (embarrassed) Oh, sorry.
    PROFESSOR: (smiles) I'm glad you like poetry, Buffy.
    BUFFY: I wish I had time for it. But I just ... don't right now.
    PROFESSOR: Well, maybe short poems.
    BUFFY: Yeah! Like, like those, those Japanese ones that, that, um, sound like a sneeze?
    PROFESSOR: Haiku?
    BUFFY: Right. Maybe those. A-and hopefully I'll be back next semester.

    The scene could have been with any of her teachers, but I think it's important that we see her talking to her poetry teacher. In my head, her liking of poetry is about Spike (all poetry references make me think of Spike), and the fact she doesn't have time for it, perhaps meaning she doesn't have time for Spike? She's also using her physical strength to remove a trapped slide, which is a contrast to her love of poetry, action-girl v's poetry girl, the one she has to be and the one she wants to be.

    Buffy doesn't have a lot of time for hobbies. She likes dancing I think, and music and we've seen her going to the movies, but I think most of her time is taking up with training.

    Loved Spike's reference to Hill Street Blues and that Buffy just didn't get it, so sweet and domestic.
     
    Puppet and gnarl like this.
  20. gnarl

    gnarl Townie

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2017
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    53
    Location:
    Cape Town, South Africa
    Reputation:
    64
    Sineya
    or maybe it only effects girls who he interacts with? All the girls he talks to get pretty intense (his girlfriend cat fights dawn, and who's to know what the broken legged girl did to be walking with him at the end of the episode?), Dawn could have had a little crush on him just from looking at him but it only got violent once she had spoken to him.
    I'm just making stuff up.
     
    Fuffy Baith likes this.