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Hot Topic: Should Angel have left the lawyers to die at Darla & Dru's hands?

Discussion in 'Season 2' started by Buffy Summers, Dec 14, 2015.

  1. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    In "Reunion", what should Angel have done?
     
  2. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Exactly what he did. As it says in the Bible, a man reaps what he sows.
     
    Wildfly: Yes, and i think Newton had great fun translating his beloved bible into laws of motion :)
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  3. Wildfly

    Wildfly blue fire

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    Black Thorn
    ...He did more than just left them. ..
    He closed those heavy doors, making sure no one escapes.
    Wasn't it a corporate event with (probably) innocent spouses present?

    That was vegenance, so i dont know why D'hoffryn haven't tried to recruit him? Or maybe it's just girls he's after? Pity he hadnt turned Angel into one then. Angelica the vegenance demon with a pretty pedant...

    Anyway, i think it was wrong, but in similar circumstances I'd done the same (only to regret it later and dream about those ppl slaughtered.)

    I wonder if Angel's demon was sated for a time. Isnt he supposed to feel constant bloodlust and at the same time be guilty about it?
     
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  4. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    But it doesn't matter. They knew the company with which they kept. Despite being an 'evil' law firm, no one forced them to work there. People made their decision.

    If you lay down with dogs you will wake up with fleas.
     
    Wildfly: Bad company, those W&H guys, aren't they? Or was it a stab at the dog owners? :)
  5. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    I really can't decide where I stand on this one. I thought it was more of a meeting of W&H than a corporate event, even so you would still have to factor in that certain people there were maybe just doing a basic job to make money, but I guess in Angel's eyes they were all tied to the evil. As much as I love that scene, I can't say I would have done the same in Angel's position. Its complex though which is why I like these shows.
     
  6. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    This wasn't just a meeting of a few random employees, this was a wine and cheese tasting party hosted by the top manager of the company (below the Senior Partners who were obviously satanic beings). The ones invited to this were the cream of the crop, the brightest and best at making hell arrive on earth. Slayers are supposed to fight the vampires, the demons and the forces of darkness, so even Buffy would have been correct to lock them in with vampires because they were the premiere forces of darkness in the world. It would have been interesting if some of them had been turned rather than killed, but that didn't happen. Note that W&H pretty much owned the legal system, so the concept of using the law to stop them was never going to fly. In cases where the law can do nothing, either AI or a slayer or some other vigilante had to do the job of rescuing society and you could make the case that Willow had the same right to do this with Warren.
     
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  7. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Angel should've kept on walking and followed Cordy's vision that led AWAY from Darla, Dru and W&H. That to me shows that the massacre was mean to happen. W&H got what was coming to them (apart from maybe Hollands wife).
    Still, it was a cool scene. And I tend to think morally grey characters are actually interesting.
     
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  8. Wildfly

    Wildfly blue fire

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    Black Thorn
    But would Buffy really kill humans even if the system sucked?

    'sides, i think i saw some wives... and maybe waiters? So what are they? collateral damage?
    so here it's from Genesis:

    "And the men turned from there and went to Sodom, and Abraham was still standing before the Lord.
    And Abraham approached and said, "Will You even destroy the righteous with the wicked?
    Perhaps there are fifty righteous men in the midst of the city; will You even destroy and not forgive the place for the sake of the fifty righteous men who are in its midst?

    Far be it from You to do a thing such as this, to put to death the righteous with the wicked so that the righteous should be like the wicked. Far be it from You! Will the Judge of the entire earth not perform justice?"

    And the Lord said, "If I find in Sodom fifty righteous men within the city, I will forgive the entire place for their sake."

    And Abraham answered and said, "Behold now I have commenced to speak to the Lord, although I am dust and ashes.
    Perhaps the fifty righteous men will be missing five. Will You destroy the entire city because of five?" And He said, "I will not destroy if I find there forty-five."
    And he continued further to speak to Him, and he said, "Perhaps forty will be found there." And He said, "I will not do it for the sake of the forty."

    ...
    and so on. he continues to bargain with God till they reach ten. Ten people!!!

    i say Abraham had balls. Nothing like that Noah guy who was told there will be a flood and he should build a ship. And he only asks how big. loser.
     
  9. Taake

    Taake Bella Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    Should is such a strong word... I'll say that it was a cool scene, that the lawyers could not be beaten by law because they basically owned it, and that they themselves were playing a high-risk game of good and evil which seems that inevitably it was going to tip in the other direction for them (can't be on top forever with those stakes.)

    So did Angel exact vengeance or did he use the best tool in his box? Maybe it's a bit of both?

    Morally, facilitating a massacre is the wrong thing to do. However, though human, these people were committed contractually, to do evil for the rest of their life (and after life judging by Lilah) so do they still fall under the protection of their humanity? I'm not so sure they do. It's nothing more than a gorier kind of capital punishment in a way.



    Early seasons Buffy wouldn't have... I'm not so sure around season 7 and on actually.

    I guess that one could argue that the wives are accomplices. Passivity does not wash the blood from their hands, so to speak.
    The waiters probably not.
     
  10. Wildfly

    Wildfly blue fire

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    Black Thorn
    So we all agree that we should take the law in our hands, the argunent is only about if we should make an effort to spare the innocent bystanders :D
     
  11. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    But even if Buffy did exactly what Angel did, she still would not be killing humans. She simply would not be saving them. There is a difference.
     
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  12. Taake

    Taake Bella Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    Not sure the distinction makes much of a difference to the people in the room though...
     
    Mr. Pole: That's the only disadvantage of being the bad guy.. people cheer when you die.
  13. vellavu

    vellavu Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    He shouldn't.

    The lawyers are just low-level (LA Branch) resources of the Senior Partners. The Senior Partners would be more than glad to sacrifice a dozen of these resources to create the conflict between Angel and his gangs. They can recruit thousands of new lawyers every year from law school.

    And they nearly did it. They nearly turned souled Angel bad.
     
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  14. brinkster130

    brinkster130 Riley's BFF Staff Member

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    Sineya
    Those lawyers were counting on the fact that they were human to make them untouchable. They wrongfully assumed that Angel wouldn't work in the morally grey areas, and he sent a loud and clear message to W&H that he wasn't going to stand by and watch them.

    Also, those lawyers had been messing with Angel for a while at that point....you can only poke a bear so many times before he's going to turn on you.
     
    Mr. Pole: Correctamundo
  15. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    It only took Buffy six episodes to rack up her first human kill in the form of the zookeeper in "The Pack" when she dumped him into the cage with the hyenas. He was just a lowly independent human force of darkness with a limited vision and moderate capability. The dividing line between good and evil for the vigilante is whether the legal system is capable of handling the problem and in this case, since magic that could not be provable legally was involved, Buffy was perfectly within her rights to act. No one appeared to lose any sleep over his demise and Buffy did not have any qualms about what she was doing.

    Angel went up against members of a large international (and interdimensional) force of darkness who were being groomed to continue the tradition of Wolfram & Hart brokering evil deals with no legal repercussions. This was a much larger organization with unlimited reach into all dimensions that could not be handled any other way. And don't forget, they were the idiots who brought Darla back to life. Regrets, anyone?
     
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  16. Smile Time

    Smile Time The Scattered One

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    Sineya
    Angel should have done the exact same thing he did because it was basically giving W&H a taste of their own medicine...
     
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  17. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    While I punch the air when it happens, and find myself oddly devoid of shock and horror, I still can't agree.

    No - guilt by association is not reason enough to die. He didn't know many of those people and he made no effort to know them. By this standard Fred, Gunn and Wesley would also be fine victims at a wine tasting. They died because they were close enough to the CEO to go to a wine tasting. After all, the good guys out there believe Angel has gone dark know that he is helping the bad guys.

    Locking the door - killing. I think Lie To Me dealt with that issue quite well.

    Yup - but Angel was supposed to be more of a moral creature than the evil guys at W&H, or a bear for that matter.
    Like I said, I punch the air and shout YES, but I still can't approve or say he in any way did the right thing.
     
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  18. Anyanka Bunny Killer

    Anyanka Bunny Killer "I got these evil hand issues..."

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    Black Thorn
    It was a nice reminder of who Angel truly is...in other words, not just a vampire with a soul, "helping the helpless," but a creature of darkness. Brilliant scene, frankly.
     
  19. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Maybe the question should be, "Was Angel under any obligation whatsoever to give, or even offer to give, assistance to members of the organization who personified evil on his series?"

    Personally, I think that Angel leaving all of the blood sucking lawyers to the tender mercies his two blood sucking former lovers was both appropriate and justified. besides which, there were all of them in a room full of wooden furniture against just two itty bitty women, one of whom was 3 aces shy of a deck. Who knows? Some of them might have even survived, if they had worked together.
     
  20. Anyanka Bunny Killer

    Anyanka Bunny Killer "I got these evil hand issues..."

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    Black Thorn
    Yes, exactly. After all, Holland Manners and his flunkies were responsible for bringing Darla back, as well as summoning Drusilla to Los Angeles. They totally got what they deserved.
    Happily, Lilah and Lindsay were spared! :D
     
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