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I have a question about the episode Empty Places

Discussion in 'Season 7' started by Kristine, Dec 15, 2016.

  1. Kristine

    Kristine Townie

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    In Empty places when everyone was having the argument and Dawn said Buffy had to leave her house, wasn't Buffy the legal owner of Joyce's house and I don't think Dawn was 18 yet. So couldn't Buffy asked everyone to leave and then everyone else could had continued without her but Buffy could have at least kept her house?
     
  2. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Potential

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    I just saw it again and confirms what I wanted to say when I first saw this question. Almost nothing about that scene makes sense, I wouldn't try. If you must, then pretend one of the spellcasting minions of the First was involved (that was my thought when I first saw it, or that it was the First itself exerting its influence). And the reason the uber vamps and such didn't then go after Buffy or the house is because the First was indulging her pet Caleb who'd be so disappointed not to "tame" Buffy or have no use for that trap he set up.

    That's also why the First (either through "visions" or just using Caleb and the like) didn't let the cops know where Faith was so they could storm the house and take it away from everyone. Even before the girls mobbed the cops they'd have been seen as accessories, after that, they'd be as good as dead, if not by the police then by people on the inside (courtesy of the First working on those there, perhaps even getting minions in)...any who escaped would probably be unable to do anything, but just to be on the safe side the uber vamps and Bringers and anything else the First could recruit would finish them off, or keep feeding tips to the police so they could have the pleasure of serving up some sweet "justice."
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 15, 2016 ---
    I just thought of a fun one! The police would be out looking for Faith and the girls, and...they'd find them. I'll assume just one at a time as the First was never shown imitating more than one person at a time. Cops call it in. There's Faith! Look, another girl! And isn't that blonde familiar? (Voice says, "Buffy Summers.") Calls in for rap sheet of Buffy Summers. Finds out she assaulted police officers a few years ago (season 2), involved in a lot of other shady incidents (and lately, one or more has been getting visitation from mysteriously killed cops, ghosts of the slain officers to their friends and partners in life as well as their families, who say Buffy Summers killed him). And wasn't she friends and associates with Faith back in the day? They were both suspects in a murder, of someone from the Mayor's office, no less! And they're pretty sure those 2 girls robbed a Sporting Goods store, assaulted the arresting officers, and damaged a good police car, too. Why are these girls not in jail?

    Wait, what's that? One got a tip that Willow tore apart the police station last year and carried out vigilante slayings. Oh look, there's Willow giving them the finger! Oh they'll pay for that! All units, all units!

    Girls keep vanishing, though, but then another squad car sees them mocking them. They're just making it worse for themselves (one sees the ghost of his dead partner whispering "avenge me").

    Wait, did they just go into that house? Hey, isn't that the house of Buffy Summers? And didn't the cops get anonymous tips from some preacher man about illegal and "ungodly" activities going on there? Why HAVEN'T we been here already?

    Time to show them the strong arm of the law. Let's have some theme music...

    Grandpappy told my pappy, back in my day, son
    A man had to answer for the wicked that he done
    Take all the rope in Texas find a tall oak tree,
    Round up all them bad boys hang them high in the street
    For all the people to see

    That justice is the one thing you should always find
    You got to saddle up your boys, you got to draw a hard line
    When the gun smoke settles we'll sing a victory tune
    And we'll all meet back at the local saloon
    We'll raise up our glasses against evil forces singing
    Whiskey for my men, beer for my horses


    Hey, this scene makes a hell a lot more sense than what happened, and would feel less forced by writers, too. :p

    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 15, 2016 ---
    Okay, see the flaw in my imaginings there. The First could only imitate Buffy and Spike. The plan could still otherwise go along those lines otherwise and end up the same, especially with "ghostly visitations" to those susceptible to that and with many tips from Caleb to guide them, maybe even demons in human form arrested who say incriminating things about them when the cops are already wired with the evil of the First (who are probably also sick of their town falling apart, and many years of frustration with this town).
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 15, 2016 ---
    I'd love to have seen the first girl tore up by Caleb and left as a message for Buffy to get a visit from a vengeance demon...a nurse asking her what she wishes happened to that guy....
     
  3. The Bronze

    The Bronze Rogue Demon Hunter

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    Black Thorn
    At this point in time the law had left town with everyone else. Age and ownership had become irrelevant. Also despite any hurt and anger Buffy was feeling or the rights and wrongs of the situation she still cared about everyone in that house and wouldn't be putting them in danger through spite.
     
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  4. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    This is another one of those episodes that has been discussed (and cussed) analyzed and argued over from the night that it first aired to nqw, and I have no doubt that it will still pop up occasionally wherever and whenever Buffy fans gather. It just plain makes no sense. If everyone was so fed up and disillusioned with what was going on and Buffy's ability to handle it, they should have been the ones to leave, not her. And if Buffy truly thought that she was right, which she more or less turned out to be, she should have stood her ground, said calmly but firmly, "If you live under my roof, you take my orders. Anyone who doesn't like it, there's the front door. Be sure to close it on your way out."

    I'm not saying that Buffy was a perfect leader, she wasn't. She made mistakes. People were hurt. Lives were lost. That's what happens in war, and Buffy was most certainly fighting a war against the First Evil. I think that the most significant thing about this episode is that the mutiny occurred not long after Giles and Wood failed in an attempt to kill Spike, and immediately after the first time that the Potentials went into battle. Up until that point, it was train, eat, sleep, and complain about Spike being such a danger to everyone there. Let Buffy take all the risks and do all the fighting, and let's order ground beef on our pizza tonight. I'm getting tired of pepperoni and sausage.

    The argument has been made that Buffy wasn't thrown out, she left voluntarily, as though that somehow justifies anything, but all that it indicates is that she cared enough about the people there to leave them in a relatively safe place rather than send them packing, looking for new shelter.

    I think that it says a lot for Buffy's character that she never asked for any sort of apology or assurance of loyalty when she came back. It also, unfortunately, says far more about the character of the people who claimed to be her closest friends and supporters that they apparently never offered anything vaguely similar to one. Hopefully, sometime between that final scene in "Chosen" and the beginning of Season 8, Giles and the Scoobies, at least, had the decency to admit that she had been right all along, and that her faith in Spike had been justified.
     
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  5. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    I've said before that vengeance demons would've solved a lot of Buffy's problems in season 7.
     
  6. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    That's assuming that a vengeance demon would be powerful enough to affect the First Evil of its chief minion. If the F E actually was what it claimed to be, it would be far more powerful than D'Hoffren and all his vengeance/justice demons combined. Imagine Dr Strange trying to cast a spell on Loki in a similar situation. They are both magic users, so Strange would be totally outclassed. It would take a tremendous power outside the First's field to defeat it. Visualize the Hulk using Loki like putting a fire out with a rag doll.
     
  7. GoSpuffy

    GoSpuffy Vampire Lover, I mean Slayer

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    Black Thorn
    to me the scene where dawn and the scoobies eject buffy from the house is the same as the seeing red A/R. They were needed to advance the story line. They aren't easy to watch but they serve their purpose.
     
  8. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Potential

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    "Puny vessel." So said Buffy to Caleb after smacking him around easily once she and the gang broke down to have Buffy channel the First Slayer again. First Slayer vs First Evil! Now on PPV! Demonic bookies would be making a fortune... o_O

    Hmm...wonder if Buffy AND Faith could channel the First Slayer AT THE SAME TIME. :cool: (And would that tick off the First Slayer twice over? :eek: Still easier to defeat than the First, and even if the First Slayer kills them, the world is still saved...till next year, of course. :p ) Oh, gods...make all the Potentials into Slayers and then ALL channel the First Slayer at the same time....:eek::eek::eek:

    ETA: has this (all Slayers channeling the First Slayer at the same time) happened in the comics yet, canon or otherwise? If so, which issue? I don't care how much it costs, it must be mine...:confused:
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2016
  9. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    The problem is, you can kill the First Evil's chief minion, and you can defeat its army, and you can stop its attack, but you can't actually harm the First Evil. It's incorporeal, therefore there's nothing to hit, and it's apparently immortal. The best that all the combined Slayers from the First Slayer through the most junior Slayer today, with all of their collective power, would do is exactly what Buffy and her crew did in Sunnydale: thwart its current plans, and force it to regroup, reorganize, re-plan, and try again later.
     
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  10. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Is the First evil actually the essence of evil itself or is it just the first being in existence that was evil and would therefore be "The First Evil"? Is there a "First Good"?
     
  11. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Potential

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    I was more having fun with my reply, but all the things the First Slayer did demonstrate occult properties, from changing a rocket into birds to sending a power pack to another dimension, so it wasn't just increased physical abilities Buffy got from channeling the First Slayer, and therefore I think it's not out of the question it could taken on the First directly. The dreams after also seem to show she can fight on other invisible layers of reality as well.
     
  12. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    It probably would've made more sense for Buffy demand that everyone leave her house. And then we could've seen everyone- including Xander who'd just staggered home from the hospital on meds (and all the still injured potentials) would get up, packing up their things, and then one by one leave Buffy's house, giving Buffy a pitying look as they did so.
    I mean it would just emphasized how idiotic and petty Buffy was being at that moment ('it's my way or nothing') and would've made her seem just as isolated.

    But of course we needed another 'Buffy the martyr' moment where nobody could understand her pain, so she had to be 'kicked out' by Dawn (because Dawn called her on her 'it's my way or I won't stay' ultimatum) and walk off alone into a deserted town supposedly overrun by the First Evil.
    Because that seems like a reasonable course of action rather than trying to work with others...
     
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  13. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    There is a logic flaw to the scenes for the reasons already mentioned. Its just that dramatically it strikes more of a chord if its Buffy leaving. Its more of a statement.

    Of course legally Dawn didn't have the right to ask her sister to leave. But I guess emotions were so high than they didn't think about such things at the time.
     
  14. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    There were a couple of dozen girls sharing one bathroom? Then Andrew commandeering the bathroom while playing videographer? I would have gotten out as well. Spike's suggestion to Anya was: "Get out, get drunk, repeat as necessary." Buffy left voluntarily when she could have told Dawn to sit down and shut up. Any hotels would have been empty at the time, so she could just walk in without having to check in to get peace and quiet, but she stopped at some guy's house and told him to get out and he did, so she stayed there instead.

    Bad deal at home + better deal elsewhere = Buffy gone.
     
    Mr Trick: Some interesting points.
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  15. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    I've said before though, why didn't the Scooby gang just commandeer the house on either side of Buffy's (since they were empty) then just build a massive fence around it. The potentials could be split between the 3 houses, meaning everybody get a better night's sleep and reducing bathroom load, plus there would be a bigger training yard. The First already knew where the potentials were so it's not like it would draw attention, plus it makes it harder to attack as there are three houses instead of everybody being crammed in one house like sitting ducks.
     
  16. Buffy Lover

    Buffy Lover Townie

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    I think she left because she felt overpowered by everyone else upset at her and besides if she threw them out they would have nowhere to go and probably be killed easily so with Buffy leaving instead ,Buffy could still protect herself and the potential slayers in the house would have all the weapons and shelter.
     
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  17. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Interesting point never thought about that before. Still makes me mad the lack of respect those rank amateurs have for Buffy though;) The Scoobies have a right to comment they do not.
     
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  18. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    I wonder why nobody brings up the guy Buffy kicks out of his house at the start of the very next episode.
    She even takes his only weapon away from him and sends him off to most likely be brutally murdered by Bringers.
     
  19. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    "First" Evil doesn't necessarily mean "Original" Evil. It could mean first as in first place winner (the "Greatest" Evil) or it could like a ship's first, or executive officer, who isn't actually the ultimate embodiment of Evil, but is, like a ship's X O, the one in charge of the daily routine of running Evil's forces, or it might be the equivalent of Evil's field commander, like Patton, Bradley, and MacArthur were Eisenhower's field commanders in World War 2.

    As for a "First Good," yes, there almost certainly would be one, but if Joss had actually had such an entity appear in Season 7, it would have eliminated the whole story line of Season 7, which was Buffy and her small team standing siege against a seemingly overwhelming force. Joss was shooting for "The Alamo," but with a better ending, not the Battle of San Jacinto, where Huston's troops overwhelmed Santa Anna's forces.

    It's always seemed strange to me that there was no master bedroom with accompanying bathroom, in addition to the common bathroom in the upstairs hall, plus at least a half bath on the main floor. Maybe that's one of the main reasons why, in Season 6, Buffy couldn't get a loan on it.

    Also, why couldn't Xander, with all of his construction skills, have installed additional bathroom facilities somewhere there? If there were nowhere else available, he could have partitioned off a small area in the basement, which would have had the same amount of floor space as the ground floor. Surely, Spike didn't take up all the space down there. Barring that, Xander should have had access to "Porta Potties," common on all construction sites, and portable shower facilities, such as are used bu construction workers when removing asbestos from older buildings.

    Of course, the single bathroom for a house full girls works better for the story.

    Probably for the same reason that Xander didn't install that second bathroom or bring in those ports potties. It made the story more interesting.

    That was probably just done to show how low Buffy was at that point. She didn't even care enough to find one of the many available unoccupied homes nearby, just crashed into the first place she came to.

    As for taking the home owner's only weapon, I can't help but remember the sage advice of now the now former Vice President Joe Biden about how a double barrel shotgun is the ideal weapon for home defense. The dern thing probably wasn't even loaded in the first place. Of course, Buffy getting her head blown off several episode prior to the series finale wouldn't have been good for the general story line, now, would it?
     
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  20. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    The Bringers were only going after the slayers and potentials, so this guy would have been safe from that. In retrospect, it the guy had stayed, he would have gone down into the sinkhole with the rest of the town. Not really an excuse to throw someone out of their house and I don't see why she didn't pick a house that had already been vacated, so yes, you are correct to bring that up.