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"I want my life to be with you" "I don't"

Discussion in 'Season 3' started by dcai0830, Aug 2, 2017.

  1. TriBel

    TriBel Potential

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    To be honest, I maybe wouldn't think about it at that level of complexity if I wasn't paid for thinking in that way. I'd certainly be more reticent about my ideas it wasn't for Espenson involvement. She worked with George Lakoff on Metaphors We live By (I think she was his PhD student) and on Philosophy in the Flesh: The Embodied Mind (he references BtVS specifically). Not sure about Whedon, his inspiration seems to come from Joseph Campbell and existentialism but he did say Espenson had been a great influence. Yep - futility is what I feel every day at work. I do agree the text took a new direction after 3 though. TBH, I prefer the latter seasons - still horses for courses!:)
     
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  2. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    Doesn't mean much to me as she didn't come on the show until S3 and for the most part her episodes are of a comedic nature (often with OOC-ness for characters) and she prefers the tertiary characters over the main ones. Plus, she called Spuffy a 'gorgeous love story' which automatically makes me think she's not all there. 'Fascinating love story', fine. But any story that involves abuse should not be called gorgeous. That's sick.

    Whedon constantly chickened out on the 'Hero's Journey' post high school, at least where Buffy was concerned. If that was Espenson's doing, I'll hate her even more.:p

    And I hate the direction the show took post-S4 even though some major problems already were set up in Season 4. I'm a big fan of 'characters drive the plot' which was the early Seasons. Too much 'plot drives the characters' post-high school. Different strokes I guess.
     
  3. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy "I wanna see how it ends"

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    Sineya
    I'm not gonna go in favor of abuse, but I'll point out that almost every relationship on the show is abusive because Spuffy is not the only love story people call beautiful. Willow abuses Tara, Buffy and Angel (since we are talking about people not having a soul), there's a thread going on about the possibility of Buffy and Riley being abusive which makes sense, obviously any of the relationships between 2 vampires, and Willow and Oz were never really abusive but the fear of it is kinda why Oz left.
     
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  4. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    Abusive according to whom? The only relationship that specifically was designed to be about abuse, was Spuffy. Willow does abuse Tara, I agree. However B/A (Buffy and Angelus were not a couple since you said soulless so I'm confused) and B/R...I don't see it. Seems like trying to read into those relationships something that might not even be there, in defense of a fave ship which was outright and purposefully written to be abusive.
     
  5. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy "I wanna see how it ends"

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    Sineya
    My point about Buffy and Angel is that Buffy clearly still loved Angel when Angelus abused her. And since you are criticizing Spike when he is soulless, I'm just leveling the playing field;)
     
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  6. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    Still don't see it. Angel (the soul) was gone and Angelus was there. Buffy had no previous relationship with Angelus and Angel was never abusive to Buffy. Spike was Spike, he was soulless throughout the whole thing.
     
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  7. Puppet

    Puppet Hands in the hair!

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    Black Thorn
    The only real problem I have with that sewer breakup, is the 'Angel didn't give her a choice'. I get that this was a unique situation, for them both, but Buffy deserved to sit down and discuss the relationship, be given a chance to give him a reason to stay. That's where I have a problem with it.
     
  8. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    No, she doesn't get a say or choice. Anyone has the RIGHT to break up with someone for whatever reason they want. That's why people have free will and choice. If you can never break up with someone without the other person's ok, we would have even more bad relationships. This isn't the old times of arranged marriages or some of the backwards cultures we still have on the planet. If someone wants to break up, they have the right to do that.
     
    Mylie: I swear everytime someone brings up the angel made the decision for buffy!!! Argument I lose years of my life lol
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  9. Puppet

    Puppet Hands in the hair!

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    Black Thorn
    Not if that same reason is Buffy's happiness. The least Angel could do was ask her, since he can't just assume that he knows what makes her happy. If that discussion still led to him leaving and her not wanting him to go, fine, but she should have been given a chance to say how she felt on the subject. Instead, the first time she hears of him leaving, it's him telling her he's leaving. Even human marriages get more chances than that. How often does a husband/wife come home to find their partner gone and divorce papers on the table? Not often, because divorce is discussed between them. Buffy deserved that same right, 100 %.
     
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  10. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    Again with Buffy's happiness. As if that's all that's important. Because what Angel feels doesn't matter? So if he stays just so she can be happy while he feels like he's dying inside a little every day, then that's fine? Just as long as Buffy's happy? Sounds incredibly unfair to me.

    IMO if two people make an individual choice to be together, they can also make an individual choice to break up. Marriage is completely different in that there are legal ways two people are bound, among other things.
     
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  11. Puppet

    Puppet Hands in the hair!

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    Black Thorn
    If you'll notice, I wrote that if Angel still wanted to leave, then fine. This wasn't about him leaving, it was about him making that choice without even giving Buffy a chance to give him a reason to stay. Sure, he'd made up his mind, but the way he went about it was completely wrong.

    Alas, as so often happens on this forum, we'll agree to disagree, since neither one of us will ever change the others mind on this topic.
     
  12. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy "I wanna see how it ends"

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    Sineya
    Not my point at all. Just saying that both Bangel and Spuffy are both relationships that led to abuse and recovered from it because of Buffy's ability to forgive. Whether it's Angel/ Angelus/ whatever that's all I meant. Angelus' abuse of Buffy factors in to the Buffy and Angel relationship. You can't just disregard it.
     
  13. dcai0830

    dcai0830 "Shoulder to shoulder. I'm yours."

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    Bangelus? Wasn't a relationship. Angel had died. Buffy was grieving his loss. Any "abuse" was the demons and not Angel. So this is not an accurate comparison.
     
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  14. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

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    This! I'll add that nobody actually wanted Buffy with Angelus? It's not like the show made us root for those 2 or ever showed them in a positive light. There was absolutely no relationship there.
     
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  15. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy "I wanna see how it ends"

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    Sineya
    The abuse still matters. Angelus abusing Buffy factors in to the Buffy and Angel relationship. Also, if you couldn't tell, Angelus was still obsessed with her. So clearly Angel's feelings factored into it. The two sides to the Angel coin are both always there. So you cannot ignore things Angelus did. Bangelus isn't a relationship obviously, when did I say that? Fairly sure I didn't.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  16. dcai0830

    dcai0830 "Shoulder to shoulder. I'm yours."

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    While the abuse certainly matters to the story arc leading up to Becoming, How exactly does it factor into the Buffy and Angel relationship?

    The distinction in my mind is this: Angelus and Buffy never had any type of a sexual or romantic relationship where as soulless Spike and Buffy did. Therefore, when discussing Spike and Buffy's relationship during Season 6, because she has this relationship with the soulless creature his treatment of her is relevant to that relationship. While the actions taken by Angelus are not relevant because at
    The time they were happening Angel was not there.

    Bangel was not an abusive relationship. It wasn't perfect, by any means, but not abusive.
     
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  17. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy "I wanna see how it ends"

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    Sineya
    Angel's actions as Angelus toward Buffy Factor into Buffy waiting/ trying not to get back together at first. And from the other perspective Angel feels he doesn't deserve Buffy because of what he's done (granted not just to her but she is certainly a part of it) so much he almost commits suicide. Most of it culminates in Amends. But the Angelus storyline also factors in to Angel's decision in The Prom.
     
  18. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    If Angelus' feeling for Buffy were an extension of Angel's then why was he so intent on breaking her ala Dru but unlike with Dru eventually kill her? If Angelus' feeling for her were in any way related to what Angel felt, then Angelus would have turned Buffy. Because then the 'love' would have been the same, just the execution of how he expressed that love would be different due to soullessness. But no, Angelus freaks out about the very thought of that love, how it it soiled him and how he's going to make her pay for making him feel it (via Angel's love for her).

    How can you even say that when the point of the curse is that Angel LITERALLY loses the soul? So there are clearly NOT always 2 sides there.

    Angelus was not involved with Buffy or vice versa. And not all abuse is the same. This is domestic abuse, which would be the topic here as we are discussing romantic partners or f*** buddies in the case of Spuffy.

    Why does Buffy need to give him a reason to change his mind? Because he is wrong in what he feels? He has a right to his feelings. Just like Buffy does. People need to stop taking agency away from people. Angel feels what he feels and he is making his decision on what he feels (even though he also used his head as he said), whether Buffy or we see that as right or wrong.

    So often? You are practically still new here, right? We have only engaged in conversation in 3 topics so far, give or take. And considering how many likes you have been giving me for old topics, you agree with me often enough it seems. :p
     
  19. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy "I wanna see how it ends"

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    Sineya
    Angelus hates the idea of love, but there is no doubt he has an obsession with Buffy. That's mostly what Passion is about. He teases it in Innocence as well.
    Also, isn't the point of Angel's Orpheus inner battle that the two each are always trying to fight the other off? They have each other's memories and they both obviously act based on the other's actions. What they both want is complete separation from the other, and they can't get it.
     
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  20. dcai0830

    dcai0830 "Shoulder to shoulder. I'm yours."

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    Fair enough. I will concede that the events that took place while Angelus was lose played a significant role in B/A Season 3. Mostly it's borne from fear of unleashing Angelus again.

    But I believe we were originally debating whether these actions paralleled the abusive nature of Spuffy (Season 6). And while
    Angelus' actions had a profound effect on both Buffy and Angel it did not transform their relationship into an abusive one.