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lighthearted past vs. grim future, next try

Discussion in 'Inside Out' started by Puffy, Feb 19, 2017.

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What do you think about that change?

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  1. Puffy

    Puffy Guest

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    I guess that helps a lot. ;)
     
  2. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    I think it would be different if Mr. Whedon did not contradict himself so often; it just seems to me that he tends to say what he thinks people want to hear most of the time. He frequently waffles, thus his dubious credibility in my eyes.
     
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  3. Puffy

    Puffy Guest

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    I see your point. However to me he is an very interesting and smart character who is challenging his audience. Because humans are totally contradictory this is his ultimate metaphor. ;)

    But thats just me, the positive guy. Its also a nobrainer that his style does not work so well when it comes to the internet. -100% humor +100% shitstorms
     
  4. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    I still say that the tone was up and down more than just one direction, it was the writing that changed. The metaphors became less frequent, and when they did appear they were really heavy handed. The writing and characterization change made the tone feel gloomier, but it wasn't that much.
    Season 2 is darker than S3 or 4, Season 7 is lighter than S6. There is no 'the longer it went on the more grown up it became', that's a fallacy.
     
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  5. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    And he created a contradictory show. Since you recognize this you should be okay with my opting to perceive it one way versus making asinine Chewbacca posts that have nothing to do with the topic when I view the show differently than he said you "should" view it in one interview.
     
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  6. Puffy

    Puffy Guest

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    So you dont like South Park? ;)
    Just kidding. "Chewbacca posts that have nothing to do with the topic" well, thats also what the clip says more or less.
    Dont be so serious, its all one big metaphor.:p
     
  7. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Of course there are ups and downs, but it's also true that seasons 5-7 are darker than seasons 1-4.
     
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  8. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    No, it only seems that way because of the writing. Plenty of bad/dark things happen in S1-4. Well, 1-3 any way. It's just the writing that's the main difference and makes it seem that Season 5 and 7 are somehow darker in terms of events.

    I mean, Season 6 is the obvious exception because there was a deliberate attempt by the writers to make it 'DARK!' and 'adult'. And while it does suffer from a lot of gloom, its not really 'adult' or mature about its subject matter.
     
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  9. Zenseem

    Zenseem Evil, skanky and kinda gay

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    Black Thorn
    I think it gives the show some sort of impression of reality and it's mostly a positive thing.

    As the characters age the content must age with them. That's what happens in life. Their high school problems can't stay the same as their adulthood problems. That's just the way things are.
     
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  10. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Of course it's the writing that makes it dark. What else would it be?

    And let's try to look at the MATH:

    - In seasons 1-4, only ONE main character ever dies without getting resurrected - Jenny.
    - In seasons 5-7, THREE main characters die without resurrection - Joyce, Tara, and Anya. You might add Jonathan there, if you consider him a main character.

    See? The later seasons are darker BECAUSE SCIENCE!

    [​IMG]
    Gif from: VIDEO: Astronaut Mixes Water & Antacid In Space Because SCIENCE!
     
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  11. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    That makes no sense. Death doesn't in any way equal darkness. There is however a difference between natural storytelling and what they did in S6. All I see in S6 is artificial darkness. And in no way was most of that adult. Characters were just shoved into their stories whether it made sense for the characters or not. And most of it was negated anyway in S7. So S6 was useless on top of that.

    Willow is sliding into darkness because of her character flaws. Oh no wait, that's too dark according to AH so lets change it to magic!crack. So apparently there was always a junkie hiding in Willow, nothing to do with her human flaws. Oh no wait, S7 tells us magic is not addictive.

    Buffy comes back from the dead to be greeted by a mountain of bills. So Tara and Willow were just burning through whatever money Joyce left behind and whatever money they might get from parents or jobs (not that I would know since they neglected to tell us that vital part) while living rent free in the Summers house. Why were they not contributing? On top of that Buffy can't find anything better than the DMP job (which was utterly insane) just so she can be even more depressed. Oh no wait, Buffy doesn't really have any money problems considering how full her house gets in S7. And even in S6 Buffy runs around with a new designer outfit every episode. Did a leprechaun come by with a pot of gold or something?

    Giles leaves for...reasons. Just a year earlier when he wanted to leave all it took was Buffy saying she needed him. Suddenly she shouldn't need him anymore when she had just come back from the dead, is depressed and dealing with a ton of adult responsibilities (like bills etc.) she has no experience with and no one there to teach her. Not to mention that he is the only one of the group who is freaking paid to be at the hellmouth. His job is to be Buffy's watcher last I checked.

    I don't even know what Xander's problem was other than his wedding jitters. Which shouldn't have occupied so much of his time. But we can't have the scoobies helping each other in any way so that has to be explanation enough. Dawn, while being through the trauma of losing her mother and sister (which I understand), wants attention 24/7 and when she doesn't get it she acts out. Her sister has to provide for her and pay bills and all Dawn cares about is that Buffy isn't there for her enough. Suck it up, buttercup. Why don't you get a part-time job to help out a little? Or get a life already and your own friends and stop expecting your sister and her friends to cater to you all day.

    None of this was in any way real darkness or mature because the writers refused to actually tackle the issues in a complex manner. It's just all so artificial.
     
    DeadlyDuo: I am really surprised I have agreed with two of your posts :)
  12. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    I think that's the first time that @RomanticSoul ever liked a post of mine. I feel oddly proud. :)

    Well, then, what DOES equal darkness?

    Not that I really think that math has anything to do with this, of course. I think that the later seasons are darker simply because they have a darker tone (which I think is unquestionable), and because they have darker themes. Which they do.

    Um, I'm sorry for not responding to all of this, but this is just not what this topic is about. Maybe you think that these seasons sucked (I disagree about that completely, of course), but that doesn't mean that they weren't dark. For example - I think that 'Man of Steel' is a really crappy film, but I also think that it's pretty dark. A story can be dark and crappy at the same time.
     
  13. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    I want to give you a hug because these posts have really cheered me up. How I've been viewing the show (and in particular one character) is apparently not how I'm "supposed" to view them, and it's gotten me a little bit down, but these posts made me realise "Why the hell can't I view the show and the character how I want?" Thank you!

    [​IMG]
     
    Mr. Pole: You can view it however the hell you want... even if you do view it wrong in regards to Spike :p hahahaha!
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  14. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    I'm sure the apocalypse is right around the corner.

    For the gif. Not what you wrote. ;)

    Because death is always dark. That's a fact of life. So which part of the show has the higher main character death count doesn't really say anything on the subject of darkness or life.

    Well yeah, they blew all their S6 budget on OMWF. Hence the rest of the season looking crappy.:p But dark themes have been there since the first Season. It's nothing the show suddenly invented. It was just dealt with differently in earlier Seasons. Whether that was in the form of metaphors or subtext. In the later Seasons they decided to be 'smack in your face' literal with it. Doesn't change the fact that the show has been dark since S1. I often think the direct approach of the later Seasons is why people insist they are so dark compared to the earlier ones. And of course the fact that nothing good ever happened to anybody for 3 freaking Seasons. The writers were relentless in their mission to make everyone miserable. Which also takes much of the realism out of the story.

    It is perfectly on topic. Because for me the darkness has to be believable otherwise I just don't see the sudden 'grimness' of it. And I didn't. Because the writers didn't fully commit to it. They either pulled back and u-turned (Willow) or they half-assed it (the money issue). And S7 either negated a S6 'dark' story or refused to deal with it honestly and thoroughly (the AR).
     
  15. Puffy

    Puffy Guest

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    Sure. I also guess the topic is already outdated, so maybe a mod could rename it to your quote. That would fit perfectly. ;)
     
  16. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Well, that's a start. :D

    I think it does say something. As you said - death is always dark. So if the later seasons have more death, then BASED ON THAT FACT ALONE, they are darker. Of course, it's entirely possible that the later seasons will NOT be darker, for all of the OTHER things in them, but more death is still an argument in favor of them being darker.

    Of course, that's still not my main point. I think it's just obvious that the later seasons are darker. The early seasons have dark stuff, but they usually only put the dark stuff in the guest characters, like Amy in 'Witch', or Debby in 'Beauty and the Beasts'. The later seasons, however, put the dark themes in the stories of the MAIN characters, and I think that that makes those stories darker. I don't think that the early seasons have ANY episode that's as dark as 'Dead Things', or 'Bargaining', or 'Conversations with Dead People'. And in the later seasons, the dark episodes are much more frequent too.
    Maybe you don't think that they're GOOD, and that's a valid opinion, but I don't see how you can claim that they are not darker.

    Dark lighting is not the same as crappy lighting. Personally, I think that the first half of season 6 is the best-looking part of the entire show. Even without the musical. All that new UPN money went to good use.:)

    But HOW you use the theme is also important. The early seasons may have had some dark themes, but they negated that darkness through the execution - 'Witch', for example, has a dark theme of child abuse, but it's negated by the fact that it only happens to a small guest character. For OUR characters, Buffy and Willow and Xander, nothing especially dark happens in that episode. By contrast, in season 6 we see our main character, Buffy, trying to commit suicide, TWICE. That's dark, no matter whether you liked that story or not.

    I obviously disagree about these seasons not executing it well.

    But even outside of that factor - just because the darkness is BADLY EXECUTED, doesn't mean that it's not dark. For example, I think that the Angel parts of 'Redefinition' (you know, when he tortures demons and burns Darla & Dru alive) are incredibly generic and boring, but I still think that they're pretty dark. So, the fact that the later seasons of Buffy sucked (in your opinion) doesn't mean that they're not dark. They still tackled dark themes, and did it in a dark way, and it was all very "Darkness! No parents!".
     
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  17. Puffy

    Puffy Guest

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    @Guy
    I really like your overall levelheaded attitude. You are not hiding behind empty phrases like "I dont care what they say" stuff. Thumbs up. :)
     
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  18. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    [​IMG]
    (Gif from: www.reactiongifs.com/tag/who-me/)

    That's very kind of you to say... But I hide behind empty phrases ALL THE TIME! :D
     
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  19. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Is that supposed to be a dig at me?:confused:
     
    Mr. Pole: No, it was at me.
    Puffy: I wouldn't dare ;)
  20. Puffy

    Puffy Guest

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    Well, in that case "emtpy" is the "new full" ;)