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Passion Of The Nerd

Discussion in 'Season 1' started by thetopher, Feb 2, 2015.

  1. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    There is something there. Buffy is always chasing someone romantically. She thinks being normal and dating are equivalents and she sees dating as an act of freedom or rebellion.

    Willow in this episode tells Giles and Angel that Buffy only went to the party because Giles was pushing her too hard and because Angel said no to coffee. At the end of Reptile Boy, Giles promises Buffy that he would go easier on her and Angel asks Buffy out. And Buffy decided to go to the party with Cordy, whom she doesn't like nor care about pleasing in the least, after Angel told Buffy they shouldn't date. She does think Tom is a nice guy which is one of the reasons she goes to his party. However the main reason is that she wants what she's being denied: the freedom to have fun and date.
     
  2. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Don't remember Willow saying it was because Angel didn't go for coffee with Buffy. But might have missed that:)
     
  3. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    ANGEL
    Did she… have a date?

    WILLOW
    Well

    Losing it, she turns on them both in a sudden Willow-fury.

    WILLOW (cont’d)
    (to Angel)
    Why do you think she went to that party? Because you gave her the brush off…(to Giles)…and you never let her do anything except work and patrol and – I know she’s the Chosen One but you’re killing her with the pressure, she’s sixteen going on forty – (to Angel) -- and you, I mean you’re gonna live forever, you don’t have time for a cup of coffee?
     
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  4. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Still that is only Willow's version of events.
     
  5. POTN

    POTN Townie

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    Side note, Lie to Me is definitely not the best philosophical touchstone in either series. It was just my first opportunity to really broach the existential topic. It made this vid because I was really taken by the symmetry between Buffy's scene with Giles and Illyria's with Wesley. Plus it fit my theme of momentary peace.

    If anything Amends (and that trio it falls in) is more compelling.
     
  6. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    That I can definitely understand, although the scene between Illyria and Wesley is more beautiful and clearer in terms of a philosophical concept. Lie to Me is just one of those Buffy episodes that are regarded too highly in my opinion, but the first time I watched that episode guide I found the way you approached the existentialist topic very interesting.

    Exactly. I really like existentialism and absurdism, so those three episode guides, especially Amends, were great. I'm sure you'll love sinking your teeth into Angel season 5, in particular the Wes and Illyria's bits. It's perhaps the best existentialist statement Joss Whedon makes in the series.
     
  7. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Themes/philosophy aside Lie to Me has lots of strong character moments, and a good plot to it. Its not a classic, but given that the show still hadn't quite hit peak form at the time I'd say it holds up well.

    Amends is a standout episode for me too. I love the theme, but also the use of light and dark is perfect and make it all the more emotionally satisfying. Think we should aim to do rewatch soon:)
     
  8. GwenRaiden

    GwenRaiden AKA Apology Girl

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    Black Thorn
    Oh, I totally fell for it. :D

     
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  9. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Yes very clever!:p Its good to have him back this has to be one of the longest breaks so far, or so it seems;)

    Nice review I love Earshot. Disagree on the clocktower scene. I think it works perfectly and that Buffy is giving Jonathan the truth he needs. I do see it as a comfort because she is putting things in perspective for him. How he chose to deal with her words was then up to him.
     
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  10. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Good review. I have to agree that in the excellence that is Season 3 overall Earshot can get overlooked. I works very well with the themes of the season, the arc of the plot and Buffy's development as a character.

    I did miss the very obvious Iago/Othello= Faith/Buffy thing, thinking that the Buffy/Faith/Angel part of the episode was simply about jealousy.

    And I do agree that Buffy's speech was more about Buffy than Jonathan...but if you factor in the fact that Jonathan doesn't really learn anything from this then I think that's fine enough.

    Also, if the no-mouth demons could read thoughts, how come they didn't read Buffy's thoughts during the fight and then kick her butt?
     
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  11. POTN

    POTN Townie

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    The one bit I forgot to include was the actual quote from Amends that I thought drove him the clocktower point:

    Amends: "Strong is fighting. It's hard and it's painful and it's everyday. It's what we have to do. And we can do it together."
    Earshot: "You are an idiot."

    It's just so brutally unsympathetic. I can't believe that in the deep dark pits, someone pointing out EVERYONE is suffering wouldn't just make things worse. "She's right. Everyone is suffering and all I can think about is my own pain. I must be a real piece of shit." Again it's not WRONG, it's just not acknowledging or empowering. My sister once sliced off a finger in an accident and I remember people telling her, "Well at least you still have your hand." And I remember thinking how that was utter BULLSHIT. Sure at least she still has her hand but you know what ALSO sucks? LOSING A FINGER. Point is you can't diminish people's suffering simply by pointing out other people have it bad too. Suffering is like a gas that fills each of us to capacity, whether it's a little or a lot.

    The clock tower scene actually suffers from it's own switcheroo. All of Buffy's dialogue really WORKS if Jonathan actually went up in the tower to shoot students. Then it's convincing to me. But the fact that he went up there to shoot himself renders the scene pretty inert for me.

    I know a lot of people love that scene though.
     
  12. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    I agree with this. Think there is a lot of great stuff in it. Pretty much every character is used well and it has a really nice balance between comedy and drama. Lots of big character growth too. Think I am due a rewatch:)

    No I think its about Jonathan. Its about all of the students in one way or the other.

    Which bit are you talking about? When does Buffy fights them? Also knowing what someone is going to do doesn't mean that you can stop it;)
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 10, 2016 ---
    I do take your point, but I still think that Buffy handled it the right way. It made for a much less predictable scene also. Thing is it could have been empowering if Jonathan had responded in a more positive way. The difference with your sister's example is that her slicing her finger wasn't her fault and she wasn't putting other people in danger (neither was Jonathan really but Buffy didn't know that at the time).

    But doesn't Buffy make the speech before she finds out that Jonathan intends to kill himself?
     
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  13. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    While I agree that we should probably NOT try to amulate Buffy's speech when dealing with suicidal people in general, I think that it worked for Jonathan specifically. Jonathan's problem, IMO, was that he felt like he was the one idiot in a school full of people who have it together, and that he was alone because he deserved to be alone, because he was useless/stupid/ugly/bad ("You all think I'm an idiot. A short idiot"). When Buffy tells him that everyone feels the same way as him, it makes him realize that he's not alone in his pain, and that people AREN'T mocking him behind his back, and that he isn't feeling that way because he's fundamentally flawed.

    I don't know, maybe I'm projecting... But I always loved that speech, and it felt right for Jonathan.
     
    Mr Trick: That's how I took her speech too.
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  14. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    Yes! I did a whole post complaining about this. Buffy's speech wouldn't help anyone in that position. I really hate how after it's revealed that he wanted to commit suicide all she says is "Oh", and then that scene is used for comic relief, because the real threat was the lunch lady all along. The episode actually ends with Buffy making fun of Jonathan ("What am I, Saint Buffy? He's like three feet tall."). I know she's joking, but after all that's happened, it's very distasteful.
     
  15. GwenRaiden

    GwenRaiden AKA Apology Girl

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    Black Thorn
    FB_IMG_1470847234689.jpg
     
  16. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Well Jonathan seemed to think it helped based on his affection for Buffy in The Prom. And even if you are on the negative side of the speech I don't see how anyone can boil it down to Buffy just saying "Oh well" There is a lot of substance to what she is saying.

    I agree that the comic twist of the lunch lady scene is a bit off, but the flaw with that scene doesn't lessen the power of the clocktower scene for me.

    Maybe the joke was distasteful to me it fits the subversive tone of Buffy and the ironic element to the show. I don't mind it.
     
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  17. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Uh, right at the start. She kills one and gets its blood on her hand. That's why the episode happens. ;)

    I think in the show it does. Remember AtS S1 'Blind Date'? That lady-assassin knew all of Angel's moves before he even did them- true it was 'seeing without seeing' and not telepathy but the anticipation factor is exactly the same.
    Even Giles says about her new 'gift' "'you can anticipate your opponents moves before they make them' and Buffy's all 'oh, its way better than that!' and she proceeds to smugly swot it up in class (which is awesome btw). :)
     
  18. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    Buffy fights at least somewhat by instinct rather than by tactics, and I wish I could recall the episode(s) where that fighting instinct is described (that might even somehow tie into her ability to have prophetic glimpses of the future, though this is my own speculation). That is, she isn't thinking of what she's going to do it and how as Sherlock Holmes did in some movie, it's instead more like riding a bike to her, more automatic and reflexive than thought out. Her motto (at least in some cases) could be, "By the time you've thought about what you're going to do I'll have killed you." Because she doesn't think for the most part. (This is even more true of Faith.)

    Granted, feints and ambushes would be useless against telepathic demons like that, but they couldn't operate at their best against a Slayer fighting more from reflex and instinct (and her confidence was probably intimidating). My criticism would instead be why they didn't fight in a more coordinated fashion. Even wolves know to confuse prey by having one seem to attack which is to provoke a defensive reaction which opens the prey to the REAL attack that takes it down. The demons didn't seem to do anything like that when they had the potential to do so much more (even more than the twins that took part in Slayerfest using electronic devices and have comm units informing them both).
     
  19. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Well alright its be awhile since I've watched the episode so;) I'm guessing that because Buffy got infected as a result of the fight with the demon than during the fight she wasn't infected therefore the demon couldn't read her thoughts.
     
    GwenRaiden: That doesn't make sense.
    thetopher: Your logic does not resemble our Earth logic. :P
  20. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Sometimes you just have to go with "because magic".