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Preachy Buffy in IOHEFY

Discussion in 'Season 2' started by Mr Trick, May 29, 2016.

  1. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    The episode shows a new side to Buffy I think. A more strong judgemental side, when she is very emotive about Jame's actions and that he doesn't deserve forgiveness. Of course a big part of this is down to what happened with Angel. But putting that aside a few questions.

    1. Can you see Buffy's point of view and agree with it?

    2. Do you see this character beat as displaying a more complex and adult side to Buffy?

    3. Would you have done what she did by returning to the school and putting herself in the Ghost's place?
     
  2. Fuffy Baith

    Fuffy Baith 2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member

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    Sineya
    1. Can you see Buffy's point of view and agree with it? Yea I think that Buffy was seeing herself, and she had no yet forgiven herself for Angel losing his soul.

    2. Do you see this character beat as displaying a more complex and adult side to Buffy? I do think that in a way this is Buffy growing up, from Innocence, she has to learn to forgive herself for what happened because it's not her fault. And she wants to take responsibility.

    3. Would you have done what she did by returning to the school and putting herself in the Ghost's place? I think it was good that Buffy went back, because it gave her some closure with "Angel". She knows that Angel loves her and doesn't blame her for anything. It was risky, but that's what Buffy does.

    The other thing that I love his Giles' speech about forgiveness. I just love when Giles gives these insightful and wise speeches.
     
    Mr Trick: I do too.
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  3. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Absolutely I can see Buffy's pov- her guilt and how it transfers to anger at James the ghost. I can't say that I agree with it exactly, but then guilt/forgiveness is rarely rational. She wasn't responsible for 'killing' Angel (since she had no clue that would happen), she just made a bad choice in the heat of the moment.

    Buffy has theis tendancy to blame herself irrationally for things that either she wasn't responsible for or she wasn't ALL to blame for- Angel, Briley breakup, the Spuffy S6 thing, etc.

    I think the whole of S2 shows a more adult development of Buffy's emotional side- in regards to those she loves; whether that's Giles or Jenny Calander, her friends, Ford or Angel- she's figuring out that emotions are complex, and so she's growing up to cope.

    Wasn't she possessed? I can't remember
    Well, if she wasn't, I still undersatand her decision. On some level she knew what James was going through and going there to confront him. I can see how that made sense for her.
     
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  4. Priceless

    Priceless You're my dog, y'know?

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    Some good questions Mr T :) This is a tough one for me, because I think I'm in a minority of one who just did not like this episode. :(The writing was sub-par, the metaphor ham fisted, the acting over the top, and it lacked the humour I love, imo.

    1. Can you see Buffys point of view and agree with it?
    Well I understand that within the show she feels guilty for sleeping with Angel and therefore releasing Angelus. I hate this! I hate that a show that wishes to be feminist punishes the young woman for sleeping with someone she loves. It's ok saying she feels guilt about releasing Angelus, but it's the manner of that release that she's also being punished/punishing herself for imo.

    2. Do you see this character beat as displaying a more complex and adult side to Buffy?
    Not particularly. She has to be forgiven by Angelus for sleeping with him. What? Huh?

    3. Would you have done what she did by returning to the school and putting herself in the ghosts place?
    For James's sake, she had to, because he felt guilt for killing someone and had to be released as he was terrorising the school.

    Ok, after all that negativity, there are thngs to like about the episode - Cordelia is great; 'over identify much' - as sual she's spot on. Willow getting further into the magic. Poor Giles, he loved Jenny so much. The music was very atmospheric.

    And what about the janitor? Is he going to spend life in prison for killing that teacher? I hope he got a good lawyer :)
     
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  5. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Thanks Mrs P!:p And you just had to get the jibes in on the episode and take the thread off topic didn't you?;) Now in the words of Xander "See I didn't get a comeback, but don't think I don't have one, its day will come!":D

    Don't think its ever a case of Buffy punising herself, or if she does I think its only as her role as the Slayer, and I'm not sure that is her emotion in this episode. I just think it is natural that such a young girl would have some sort of emotional fallout from the one she loved turning bad as a result of them spending the night together.

    See I really think there's more going on than that. To me Buffy is speaking out more against the act of love, and questioning whether love is actually worth it in the long run, as it leads you to do stupid things, and to have your heart broken. In a way she is being just as anti-Angel or men in general (not that gender's important in this case), rather than anti-herself. And I do think its refreshing that we see Buffy (no matter her motivations) approaching a complex issues in a way which is thinking outside of the box, but also very strong willed and indiviualist. In the past she might have just gone along with Giles and the others, and focused on the mission. As it happens I think she has a very good point about James, even if her judgement is clouded.

    I assume he went away for awhile yes, as his defence would be near impossible to prove;) Then again since Giles was on the scene maybe knowing that they was something more to it maybe he covered things up?:eek:
     
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  6. Priceless

    Priceless You're my dog, y'know?

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    You are right, this is probably the reaction a 16 year old girl would have, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. I wish Buffy had turned around and said 'What about Angel? Doesn't he get blamed for sleeping with me and releasing Angelus?' :) No one, not one character seems to blame Angel, and that annoys me.

    Buffy does wonder if love is worth it, and then we see a kid waving a gun around, telling his lover 'either love me or die, your choice'. It's all just mixed signals. The student and Buffy are young, the teacher and Angel are older/old, they should have known better. It's no wonder Buffy's so down on love.
     
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  7. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    But you are still assuming that people are blaming Buffy. The only person blaming Buffy is maybe herself, and I do think than that is down to her role as a slayer and that maybe she reflects that getting involved with Angel just wasn't the wisest thing to do regardness. I don't think she is actaully blaming herself on a direct level for turning him bad. Giles, Xander and Willow never blame Buffy. Angel didn't know about the carse before sleeping with Buffy so on that level at least I think he be detached from blame.

    But then I think its pretty reasonable to say that no matter how naive or hurt James was, than shooting someone was a selfish and mis-guided act. Yes, the teacher needs to take responsibilty for her part in the affair, but that still doesn't mean that she deserved to be shot. What James did was wrong pure and simple. And if the episode gives out mix signals I think that is as a way of getting us to think about the themes, and to challenge us more. To me that's what compelling television does. I hate it when shows are black and white, and tell the audience what to think.
     
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  8. Priceless

    Priceless You're my dog, y'know?

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    I don't think it's only Buffy blaming herself. When Giles finds out about it he tells her he's 'disappointed' in her, Joyce virtually goes off her head an Xander isn't too pleased either :) I'm not saying they didn't get over it, but I think their reactions affected Buffy. No one knew the details of the curse, but it seems it's only Buffy that is ever belittled by what she's done. If Giles had just said 'You;d think a 240 year old vampire would know better!' :)

    You are right that this episode does challenge us and make us think. It seems at first like some deeply romantic story of forgiveness and love, but underneath that it can be seen as being about about abuse and control. Joss must have a very weird view of love, sex and relationships :)
     
  9. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Wait? When did Giles say that? I don't remember that? I remember him giving her a truly touching pep talk which was nothing but supportive. Xander's different because he was always against Buffy and Angel (partly for his own selfish reasons). So I don't think that its a case of him blaming Buffy for sleeping with Angel, rather than he was against the relationship full stop. I just think you have to except than as the lead character of the show it makes sense that we follow Buffy's experience more than Angel's, just like if she was guest starring in his show, the focus would be on him more.

    Or Noxon who wrote the script;)
     
    Priceless: Now I'm going to have to look for Giles's quote lol
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  10. Priceless

    Priceless You're my dog, y'know?

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    Giles doesn't say he's disappointed, but he does say she acted rashly, which is another way of blaming Buffy for the outcome. Buffy even has to seek forgiveness from from Angel, who has certainly forgotten that it takes two to tango. This is what makes this episode a difficult watch for me.

    I do agree we have to follow Buffy's story, but this episode still annoys me in the sense that Joss appears to want to make a feminist tv show with a strong female character, but we are still left with this ancient idea that the girl is always to blame for the bad outcomes of sex, which is one of the most anti-feminist things you can do. I expect better from Marti Noxon. Maybe she wanted women to hate this episode and question the connection/similarities between Buffy and a boy who deliberately murders his lover :eek:

    But I would say that it does fit with Joss's ethos that sex is bad and every relationship has to end. I just wanted better for Buffy :)
     
  11. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    I believe Giles says MAY have acted rashly, the key word being may, for me it was more a figure speech than him actually accusing Buffy of anything. When does she seek forgiveness from Angel? I don't remember that!:D

    But again that is your reading of it. I don't see it like that at all and I don't think many others do either. What the same Marti Noxon who came up with the attempted rape scene in Seeing Red based on the time she tried to force sex on an ex-boyfriend you mean?;) We already covered that and agreed the episode is throwing the issues up in the air, rather than just tying everything up into a tidy bow.
     
    Priceless: We shall have to agree to disagree ;-)
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  12. Sternbeeere

    Sternbeeere Glory´s sane(?) groupie

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    1. Can you see Buffy's point of view and agree with it?
    I can see her point, but I do not know whether I can agree. And I mean not the thing, that shooting someone is generally wrong, I mean rather that she thinks that is definitely his ghost, because only men can do that. Also her general anti-love commitment is an overreaction to me. Although I am guilty of thinking like that too, but if you look at the whole thing rationally it is an overreaction.
    2. Do you see this character beat as displaying a more complex and adult side to Buffy?
    No, not generally. I think she shows character development, which later turns out to strengthen her obsession with finding the "normal and good guy" , thus rejecting Spike, one of the less judging and more caring and devoted people on the show. It also strengthens her wish for being normal, which is development but not necessarily maturity per se. But then I am not good at defining maturity.
    3. Would you have done what she did by returning to the school and putting herself in the Ghost's place?
    I think she was possessed, but even if she was not I would do the same thing. First, because the people in school were in danger and another way did not work. Second, because I would be the Slayer on duty. And third because the ghosts were obviously suffering as well.

    About Giles and the scoobies:
    I think out of the three scoobies he was the most supportive character, saying that Buffy deserves respect for what she did. Followed by Joyce, who at a point said, talk done. Willow is relatively neutral, as far as I see it, she gets more unpleasant in later. non high-school seasons. And Xander, as it has been said, has his own selfish reasons. Also, in my opinion, he is not exactly the guy who treats girls well.

    That being said, I wonder, if you define maturity in declining love and saying a rational approach in seeking a relationship is the mature one.
     
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  13. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    1. Can you see Buffy's point of view and agree with it?

    The core of this story is two questions:

    A. Does forgiveness exist?
    B. Should forgiveness exist?

    Buffy gives her answer (which is no to both questions) in the following exchange:

    GILES
    Yes. I imagine he does. But when
    James possesses people they act out
    exactly what happened that night, so
    instead he's experiencing a form of
    purgatory. He's doomed to kill his
    Miss Newman over and over again - and
    forgiveness is impossible.

    BUFFY
    Good. He doesn't deserve it.

    GILES
    To forgive is an act of compassion,
    Buffy. It's not done because people
    deserve it. It's done because they
    need it.

    BUFFY
    No. James destroyed the person he
    loved the most in a moment of blind
    passion. And that's not something
    you forgive. No matter why he did
    what he did. No matter if he knows
    now that it was wrong and stupid and
    selfish. He's just going to have to
    live with it...

    XANDER
    He can't live with it, Buff. He's dead.

    2. Do you see this character beat as displaying a more complex and adult side to Buffy?

    Not at all. Buffy is showing a complete lack of understanding of forgiveness that actually makes her seem more childish. Buffy is shown to believe in a right-wing dichotomy of good and evil like you would find in a children's book. There is no possibility of a state of being somewhere on the scale between these extremes. She has a view that some people do not deserve mercy whereas Giles believes that what they deserve is not the main consideration. James chose her as his vessel because her ideas were more closely aligned with his than with Miss Newman. And when Xander gets to squelch Buffy by what he says in his last line, you know Buffy is being shown as less mature than Xander.

    3. Would you have done what she did by returning to the school and putting herself in the Ghost's place?

    She had no choice and neither did Angelus. What horrified her after is that she became the aggressor rather than the victim and the story is clever in one sense - Angelus cannot be killed by being shot so they get back together and free both spirits before the spell wears off. She does show some change in her position:

    BUFFY
    He picked me. I guess I was the one
    he... could relate to. He was so sad...

    GILES
    Well, now they can both rest.

    BUFFY
    I still... part of me still doesn't
    understand why she would forgive him.

    GILES
    Does it matter?

    BUFFY
    (thinks)
    No... I guess not.

    But this still doesn't show maturity - she thought she he chose her because he was sad. No, he chose her because her closed mind that demanded to be in control of the situation was more like hers.
     
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  14. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Some great points. Again I would chellenge this idea that her views in the episode show a lack of maturity. Yes, maybe she is being a bit narrow minded and trying to simpfy a complex issue. But at the same time it is good to see Buffy have strong feelings about something, and for her to stand up for her beliefs, and to not be afraid of going against the grain. And it is easy for the likes of Xander and Cordelia to be judgemental when they have not been through something as extreme as what Buffy experienced with Angel.
     
  15. Sternbeeere

    Sternbeeere Glory´s sane(?) groupie

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    I do not think she is actively going against mainstream beliefs, in terms of rational arguments and discussions. She is rather deeply hurt and thus understandable, but not necessarily improved/grown as person. Deep feelings alone is not development for me it is core-personality and I would say part of Buffys overall personality is having strong feelings.