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Rape in season 6 (Trigger Warning)

Discussion in 'Sunnydale Cemetery' started by Monkey Pants, Mar 30, 2016.

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  1. gite63

    gite63 Gone

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    Sineya
    Angel would never kill Faith, and deep down she knew that. Anyway, she was really turning around, she did want help - what I'm saying is Angel could not be sure of that, and shouldn't have kept her at home without any precautions - Wesley and Cordy thought that so. If Faith wanted to kill the three of them, she would have succeeded - Angel, she would have caught out of guard, and Wesley (badly hurt) and Cordy would have been an easy target.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2016
  2. Monkey Pants

    Monkey Pants Bored Now

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    Black Thorn
    In terms of Buffy letting spike hang around the potentials, yes, I highly doubt her judgement, but that's on her.
    But in terms of "Spike is still a killer in season 7", first of all, he was being controlled by The First and had no knowledge or memory of what he was doing. Unlike, say, Andrew, who was tricked into murder by The First but still did the act consciously.
    Secondly, Angel killed while he was souled too, and of his own free will. In Darla we see that he was killing (murderers and thieves, but still) to impress Darla and stay with her.
    There's a double standard for Angel and Spike.
     
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  3. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    A double standard doesn't really impact the situation here: trusting Spike in this instance was still stupid and risky, no matter whether Angel did something stupid and risky as well or not.

    Also, though, Angel killing people while he was with Darla while he had a soul is not the same thing as Spike being controlled by The First and made to kill in the "present". And the fact that Spike was being controlled by another entity makes him less reliable than Andrew because Buffy et al couldn't trust him to act predictably.
     
  4. Monkey Pants

    Monkey Pants Bored Now

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    Black Thorn
    Yes, I completely agree that Buffy made a very dangerous and unnecessary decision.
    I'm just saying that it doesn't prove that Spike is still bad or anything.
     
  5. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    I don't even remember why we were talking about this :D
     
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  6. Iwearthecheese

    Iwearthecheese Scooby

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    That's not Spike's style and never has been. If he wanted Buffy dead he went after her directly in the past. Angelus was the one who targeted her friends.

    I think of it like this: Buffy has some powerful feelings for Spike by the time of Season 7, and wants to help him. Angel does not have powerful feelings for Faith but wants to help her.
    Without bringing the whole mind-control issue into it its safe to say that Angel's judgement is more balanced in this case because his empathy is not as all-encompassing as Buffy's feelings for Spike.

    I'll give another example; in 'Same Time, Same Place' Buffy and Xander find a dead human with his skin removed and Willow- who was supposed to meet them upon her return- is missing.
    Xander never thinks that Willow is responsible for this. Why? Because he loves her and can't believe that she would do this. It is not sense or reason, it is belief- there's a beauty in that trust he has. It isn't smart but so what, its Xander and Willow is his closest friend, he thinks what he thinks.
    But Buffy has to consider that Willow might be responsible because she is the slayer and has to think these thoughts. (I actually think its because she also doesn't love/trust Willow as much as Xander does but that's just my opinion.)

    Later on Buffy believes in Spike despite evidence to the contrary- he is not responsible for these evl things, somebody else is using him. Again its not logic or judgement, its belief and there nothing wrong with that either.
    I would've prefered it if Buffy didn't let Spike wander around so much- that's my problem with the way she acts. Not that she believed in him, but that she didn't take those extra precautions because there were good people there under her roof who deserved protection.
    And also Andrew!
     
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  7. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    It had not previously been his style, but the whole setting Riley up scenario certainly showcased that it could be his style. He was never chipped and in love before. Love makes you do the wacky.
     
  8. Neat16

    Neat16 Townie

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    Black Thorn
    Didn't Buffy chain Spike in the basement in S7
     
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  9. Dolores

    Dolores Professional sleeper

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    Wasn't that only when they were doing that spell on him to find out what his trigger was? She was pretty quick to remove the chains despite Giles' reservations.
     
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  10. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    You mean aside from Ford in 'Lie To Me, 'Willow in 'Lover's Walk', Willow in S4, all scoobies in TYF and offering to kill Buffy's friends in S6? And these are just off the top of my head.
     
  11. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    We cant forget he also volunteered to kill Faith in S7.
     
  12. Iwearthecheese

    Iwearthecheese Scooby

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    Which was about getting Buffy somewhere trapped, nothing to do with her friends.

    Which was nothing to do with Buffy. Spike wanted Willow to do a love-spell on Drusilla.
    Then, because Spike was drunk, he decided to mope around and get sympathy from Joyce and kinda forgot that Buffy might show up (again, he was drunk)

    He went to Buffy's room to get Buffy herself. But Willow was there and he saw an opportunity.

    Did he kill any of them? Nope, he just wanted to separate them from Buffy, The chip didn't allow him to do anything else, otherwise he would've attacked Buffy himself just like in 'Harsh Light Of Day'

    Lame joke? He tells Bufyf this so I doubt he was serious. She certainly didn't think so.

    You're saying that Spike would go to the far side of the world to get a chip out to kill Buffy's all friends one-by-one (which he's never actually done) to cause her pain when he already felt bad about causing her pain 'I can't be a monster, and I'm not a man', etc.
    I just don't think that's very likely.

    I don't remember that, when did it happen?
     
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  13. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    @Taake And I think that here, the message to kids so to speak, is that trying to rape someone is no big deal.

    Yup, that is the risk - but the opposite is showing rape to the point of desensitization. Showing violence in all it's full blown glory gives us slow motion gore. The message there is violence is fun, and cool. Like I said, no right way, IMO

    They really didn't do either - they did focus on the perpetrator's need for redemption. They didn't show Buffy beaten down 4 months later - and Spike was barely even in the first 1/3 of the season.
     
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  14. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    In Touched.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2016 ---
    It looked like they did it to me.
     
  15. gite63

    gite63 Gone

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    Sineya
    I see your point, but Angel had a strong emphathy for Faith because of his own story - it wasn't a coincidence that we see it told on the same episode.

    Angel said, in his first tentative of helping Faith (botched by Wesley), that she was a "wall". From that time on, Faith descended still more, and when she appears in L.A., she kidnaps Wes and tortures him - she was about to burn him when Angel shows up. Then, she collapses in his arms, and he is totally convinced that she is really been honest, and takes her to his home...

    Was his judgment clouded by his own life story and his eargness to believe that Faith can be redeemed... or his guts told him that she was being sincere and he took a risk that neither Wesley nor Cordy were willing to face? Both Angel and Buffy were right, eventually.
     
  16. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    Did we ever see vamps on the show have enhanced hearing? If so he would have been able to tell if she was lying.
     
  17. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    I am fairly certain there were references to it. Hearing peoples heartbeats I believe. I thought at one time Angel her Buffy's heart beating faster. I also think that when the one chick drugged Angel, Angelus mentioned he could hear her heartbeat. I could be totally wrong though.
     
  18. gite63

    gite63 Gone

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    Sineya
    That was a joke! And if in ***not in this universe not ever*** case Buffy had answerd dead serious "go kill her then, please", he would be shocked and disgusted beyond belief - no "you are the one" speech, because it would not be Buffy he loved and looked up.
     
  19. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    That's kind of it in a nutshell - the issue seems to be Spike. Every other character who does evil is permitted the chance to change, redeem themselves. The objection here on this thread seems to be that Spike did exactly that, and they showed it. We've barely touched on the other rape issues in season 6 the last several pages, let alone the ones that permeate the show. We've been discussing season 7 Spike, and the fact Buffy trusted his penance as if this was a bad thing. Every other character that did evil, and showed penance, was forgiven and accepted - and let's just leave the First out of this because that's an entirely different issue, IMO. In fact, the fact that the First is even being debatedis kind of indicative that showing Buffy's recovery is less an issue than showing Spike's penance.


    Setting Riley up? Do you mean exposing the fact that Riley was getting suck jobs from vamp trulls? How was that a set-up - would anyone have believed Spike over Riley without proof?

    He also volunteered to thin the herd for Buffy - and we know he never uses sarcasm or snark.:rolleyes:

    Interesting interpretation of the word - I assume you mean that by showing his penance they glorified him. Again - isn't that what we want shown, in term of message?

    The fact that they didn't show Buffy crying in counseling doesn't actually mean they ignored her.
     
  20. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    I do not believe that. That is why he perked up when she expressed satisfaction that Spike hit her. I think if Buffy batter her eyes and said "yes please, Spike, go kill her for me" he would have speedy gonzalezed out of that room.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 16, 2016 ---
    What friggin penance?? You had four episodes to show some remorse but they turned him into Indiana Jones and sent him on an African adventure and then let him show some topless goodness and brag about being a demon. They glorified him.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 16, 2016 ---
    And if he showed penance for trying to rape Buffy and dealt with it then they would not have had to FINALLY deal with it over a decade later in a comic book. It took them a decade to address it.
     
    gite63: So, when Faith suggested to push Giles into the Sunnydale crater and Willow agreed with her, they were being dead serious?
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