1. Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Ten thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

Sanctuary B/A scene

Discussion in 'Season 1' started by dcai0830, Aug 18, 2017.

  1. dcai0830

    dcai0830 "Shoulder to shoulder. I'm yours."

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2017
    Messages:
    519
    Likes Received:
    609
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Texas
    Reputation:
    347
    I always found this scene confusing AF.

    Buffy: "I have someone in my life now. (Angel looks away from her but otherwise doesn't move) That I love. (Angel swallows hard) It's not what you and I had. - It's very new. (She steps closer) You know what makes it new? - I trust him. - I know him."
    Angel lets out a sharp breath: "That's great. - It's nice - you moved on. - I can't. You found someone new. - I'm not allowed to, remember? I see you again it cuts me up inside and the person I share that with is me! You don't know me anymore. So don't come down here with your great new life and *expect* me to do things your way. - Go home!"
    Buffy: "See? - Faith wins again."
    Angel without looking at her: "Go."
    Wesley: "You all right?'
    Angel: "For a taciturn, shadowy guy - I've got a big mouth."
    Wesley: "Did you want to go after her?"
    Angel: "Yes."


    Things I don't understand:

    Buffy: "I have someone in my life now. That I love.

    --- Buffy hasn't even told Riley she loves him and she is telling Angel? (Incidentally I don't believe her). Why?

    Buffy: "It's not what you and I had. - It's very new. (She steps closer) You know what makes it new? - I trust him. - I know him."

    --- Is Buffy trying to say, yet again, that she doesn't trust Angel? And if so, why? What did Angel do in this episode that would have made her not trust him?
    --- Is Buffy saying she trusts Riley because the relationship is new and once its not new she won't trust him? What does the relationship being new have to do with trust? Wouldn't you think that a new relationship would mean that the trust hasn't been built. I don't understand the relationship between the relationship being new and trust.
    --- Is Buffy saying she doesn't know Angel? Didn't she spend like 3 years with him?

    Angel : ""you moved on. - I can't. You found someone new. - I'm not allowed to, remember? .....You don't know me anymore.

    Why is Angel not allowed to "find someone new"?
    Again, why doesn't Buffy know Angel "anymore" when they have only been apart for like a year-ish? What happened in that one year aside from getting his own show that has changed Angel so instrumentally so as to change him so much that a friend of 3 years doesn't know him anymore....

    Buffy: "See? - Faith wins again."

    --
    How does Faith win? She is in jail... ?

    Wesley: "Did you want to go after her?"
    Angel: "Yes."

    --
    Why doesn't Angel just go after her? She is literally right outside, she is probably still at the stairs, pretty much you could catch her right now. Why does he have to be all dramatic and wait for her to make it back to Sunnydale ? Was it day light? Season 1 ATS Angel is impervious to the sun, we all know that - he goes all over the place during the day.

    DISCUSS.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2017
  2. Athene

    Athene Scooby

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2017
    Messages:
    1,159
    Likes Received:
    1,179
    Gender:
    Female
    Reputation:
    497
    I hate Buffy in this scene she was talking a load of rubbish and just pulling out whatever punches she could to hurt Angel and part of that was lying about loving Riley.
    Honestly, I was cheering when Angel sent Buffy home and I lost a tiny bit of respect for him when he went to apologise to Buffy in 'The yoko factor'. I thought it was Buffy that owed Angel an apology not the other way around.
    Even as a Bangel fan, I love that Angel doesn't let Buffy push him around, relationships are about equality not one person being completely obedient to the other no matter what the price is :rolleyes:
    I was proud of Angel :)

    IMG_3573.GIF

    Gif made by love robot
     
  3. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy "I wanna see how it ends"

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2017
    Messages:
    1,069
    Likes Received:
    1,243
    Gender:
    Male
    Reputation:
    566
    Sineya
    Buffy was out of line and a flat out liar. She didn't love Riley and there was no point to her saying she had someone in her life except to get back at him for protecting Faith. However that part is the only part of the scene I have a problem with. But I never go against Buffy so clearly this was a problem.
     
  4. dcai0830

    dcai0830 "Shoulder to shoulder. I'm yours."

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2017
    Messages:
    519
    Likes Received:
    609
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Texas
    Reputation:
    347
    I know we have had plenty of discussions about how Buffy is or is not "out of line" I guess I'm asking did anyone else have problems understanding this scene? With the writing - what is said. I didn't understand narratively what the writers were trying to convey.
     
  5. Antho

    Antho Scooby

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2016
    Messages:
    558
    Likes Received:
    642
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Montauban (France)
    Reputation:
    707
    I think they wanted to demonstrate the contrast between Angel and Buffy and demonstrate the fact that now each of them evoluate in a different way and no longer together. This is a confrontation between the two main character and the two universe (L.A and Sunnydale). Maybe in the topic of the episode, comments will help you to understand. I wrote a review where I developed my though if you want....
    Discussion of 1.19 "Sanctuary" - Aired 5/2/2000 (WB-US)
     
  6. Grace

    Grace Support-O-Gal

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    93
    Gender:
    Female
    Reputation:
    50
    In terms of your questions, dcai0830, I think Buffy says she loves Riley just to hurt Angel. It's the thing she can say to cause the most damage. Even if it's a total lie, Angel doesn't know that.

    And she's saying that her relationship with Riley is new because it's a new experience for her to be in a relationship with someone she trusts (which is also BS). I also think she's trying to imply that she doesn't know the person Angel has become -- the guy who would go against her to protect someone who has hurt her so badly (Faith).

    Angel isn't allowed to find someone new because of the curse. (I think at this point, he still thinks he can't have sex with anyone, let alone someone he actually loves.) He says Buffy doesn't know him because she hasn't ever seen him on his own, with his own mission that is separate from hers. That she doesn't know him when they're not necessarily on the same team.

    Faith wins in Buffy's view because she's gotten Angel to choose protecting her over Buffy, and in doing so has driven a wedge between them. She's found a way to screw things up for Buffy again (in Buffy's view).

    The more I think about this scene, the more I sympathize with Buffy in it, actually. She's totally in the wrong, but I can identify with saying things you don't mean when you're in a lot of pain, especially when you're as young as Buffy is. Angel has hurt her in a way that she never expected him to. Even if it was the right thing for him to do, and even if she knows that (since she did help Faith, too), it's deeply wounding, given what Faith has just done to her. Which is why I think Angel follows her to apologize, when she's the one who owes him an apology.
     
    Priceless, thrasherpix and Mylie like this.
  7. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2016
    Messages:
    1,017
    Likes Received:
    1,435
    Gender:
    Female
    Reputation:
    724
    Others have already answered what I would answer myself for the other points but this one...

    I think he just wanted both of them to cool down a bit? By waiting he could collect his thoughts but also give Buffy some time to gain some perspective and be less on a defensive (or attack lol) mode about the Faith thing. Angel himself was obviously still angry even when Wesley came up and it's never a good idea to try to apologize to someone when both sides are still angry.

    So for me it makes sense.
     
  8. dcai0830

    dcai0830 "Shoulder to shoulder. I'm yours."

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2017
    Messages:
    519
    Likes Received:
    609
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Texas
    Reputation:
    347
    Yeah and we see Buffy do this a lot. She lashes out when she is hurt. I just didn't understand what exactly she was trying to say in the script.
     
    Grace likes this.
  9. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2017
    Messages:
    1,435
    Likes Received:
    2,386
    Reputation:
    2,119
    Go watch the two Faith episodes on season 4 of Buffy. Then it will all make sense. People tend to forget exactly how much shit Faith puts Buffy through.
     
    Priceless likes this.
  10. Priceless

    Priceless I am now

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Messages:
    4,071
    Likes Received:
    3,627
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    UK
    Reputation:
    3,392
    I know I am in a minority on this board, but I do believe Buffy does love Riley and isn't lying to Angel here. I don't think Buffy is a liar and she loves Angel too, she wouldn't deliberately lie to him, not matter how angry she was with him.

    Buffy never felt like she knew Angel, that's partly what their scene in Earshot is about, that she can never get inside his head and feels like she doesn't fully understand him. She doesn't trust him because he left her and that's always been her issue, I think she's saying she's trusting Riley not to leave her. Angel is complex, Riley is not, he's simple and therefore his motivations are more understandable to her.

    Angel feels he can't move on because of the curse. he can't allow himself one moment of true happiness, so he feels he won't ever find another partner. He has changed, he's not the same Angel that Buffy knew, it he had been they wouldn't be having this discussion and Angel realises that.

    Buffy feels that's it's Faith's influence that has pushed Angel away from her, she's come between them.

    Angel is doing the mature thing. If he'd gone after her now, they would have just fought some more. He's giving Buffy time to calm down, to think about the situation. I think he's done the right thing.

    The scene is obviously meant to separate the two characters, to show their lives are different now, to give Angel the show a chance to flourish out from under ths shadow of Buffy and her influence and from that angle it worked well.
     
    flow and WillowFromBuffy like this.
  11. dcai0830

    dcai0830 "Shoulder to shoulder. I'm yours."

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2017
    Messages:
    519
    Likes Received:
    609
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Texas
    Reputation:
    347
    And it's believable to you that she would tell Angel she loved Riley when she never even told Riley?
     
  12. Athene

    Athene Scooby

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2017
    Messages:
    1,159
    Likes Received:
    1,179
    Gender:
    Female
    Reputation:
    497
    Nothing Faith did gives Buffy the right to take her anger out on Angel. Buffy just comes across as ugly and petty in that scene.
     
    RomanticSoul likes this.
  13. Priceless

    Priceless I am now

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Messages:
    4,071
    Likes Received:
    3,627
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    UK
    Reputation:
    3,392
    Just because you haven't said the words, doesn't mean you don't feel them. Buffy's history with relationships isn't great and I think it's very in character for her not to wear her heart on her sleeve.

    Faith stole her complete identity, took everything was Buffy and made it her own. It was a vile and spiteful act of a damanged creature. From Buffy's pov the fact that Angel, the person she loved more than anyone in the world, who says he loves her more than anything, appears to side with that creature. It's a horrible situation for all of them, but Buffy is acting how I think anyone would act and I have every sympathy with her.
     
  14. Antho

    Antho Scooby

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2016
    Messages:
    558
    Likes Received:
    642
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Montauban (France)
    Reputation:
    707
    Capture screen ! Capture screen ! You said it ! YOU SAID IT :eek::eek::eek: Sorry, just kidding :p
     
    Priceless: Lol :-)
    dcai0830 and Priceless like this.
  15. Priceless

    Priceless I am now

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Messages:
    4,071
    Likes Received:
    3,627
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    UK
    Reputation:
    3,392
    Buffy says it herself in season 7, so who am I to argue with her :p Doesn't mean she can't love anyone else
     
    dcai0830 and Antho like this.
  16. Athene

    Athene Scooby

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2017
    Messages:
    1,159
    Likes Received:
    1,179
    Gender:
    Female
    Reputation:
    497
    I don't sympathise with Buffy, it's Angel's decision who he decides to protect so it's not Buffy's place to punish him for doing so. Why should I be taking Buffy's side in that scene, she was out of order to deliberately hurt Angel, he's done nothing to her apart from protect Faith, which he has a right to, he doesn't have to follow Buffy's wishes in his own home.
    Maybe Buffy acts like anybody else would in that situation but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
     
  17. Priceless

    Priceless I am now

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Messages:
    4,071
    Likes Received:
    3,627
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    UK
    Reputation:
    3,392
    I understand your pov, and you are right in the sense that it's Angel's decision who he protects, an dyou certainly don't have to like Buffy in this situation. But looking at it from Buffy's pov, I think her reactions are completely human. I think she just expected Angel to be on her side, and was stunned when he sided with Faith. When someone says they love you, there's an expectation they will support you, and on both sides Angel and Buffy were let down by that expectation. It's here that they come to understand they've both changed and things will never be the same.
     
    WillowFromBuffy likes this.
  18. Athene

    Athene Scooby

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2017
    Messages:
    1,159
    Likes Received:
    1,179
    Gender:
    Female
    Reputation:
    497
    That's exactly my problem with it, Buffy's angry because Angel didn't do what she wants and thinks is right but he doesn't have to. Buffy is the only one making it about choosing sides, Angel protected Faith because it's the right thing to do not because he doesn't care about Buffy. It makes Buffy seem like she wants Angel to obey her and that's not what a loving relationship is about, like even if you love your partner if they're out of line it's your job to stop them even if it means not supporting them. Angel doesn't love Buffy any less just because he wouldn't let her do something that he thinks is wrong....
     
    RomanticSoul likes this.
  19. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2016
    Messages:
    1,017
    Likes Received:
    1,435
    Gender:
    Female
    Reputation:
    724
    I honestly sympathize with all 3 of them in this episode. Obviously, Buffy is extremely hurt (what Faith did to her IS horrible and seeing Angel defend Faith must really sting, especially given the history there and what JUST happened with Riley), Angel is put in a very tough spot (he wants to help Faith and its not only what he signed up for when he decided to help the helpless but he also sees a lot of himself in her so I get it) and Faith just started letting herself feel remorse for the things she's done, she's letting herself feel vulnerable and Buffy, the person she has wronged the most, just arrived in town to point the finger and punish her. The timing couldn't have been worst.

    That scene really works well for me because I understand them both. Ok it's not Buffy's shiniest moment, but I do find her relatable.
     
  20. flow

    flow Male Vampires are stupid. Throw rocks at them

    Joined:
    May 4, 2017
    Messages:
    377
    Likes Received:
    496
    Gender:
    Female
    Reputation:
    316
    She is only ... how old ? Eighteen years I think. She was extremly hurt and heartbroken when Angel broke up with her. It doesn`t matter if he did the right thing by doing that or not. It still hurt her. She might be with Riley but she has not moved on. That will be one of many reasons her relationship with Riley won`t work. She still loves Angel.

    She is not acting like a wise and mature and rational woman in this scene. She is acting like an angry, hurt and heartbroken girl. That doesn`t make her ugly or petty. Maybe she deliberately hurt Angel. But she didn`t do it, because he protected Faith. She did it, because she felt hurt by him. She was lashing back. That doesn`t make it any better of course, because it is just spite and revenge. But it makes it so much more understandable.

    Would I have acted the same in the same Situation ? Yes. Would I have liked my own behaviour ? No. Being a superhero doesn`t make her a saint. She is still just a normal human being, when it is all about human emotions. That makes me like her even more.

    Flow
     
    Fool for Buffy, Priceless and Mylie like this.