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Season 3 a mixed bag

Discussion in 'Season 3' started by The Bronze, Jan 24, 2016.

  1. The Bronze

    The Bronze Rogue Demon Hunter

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    Black Thorn
    I'm watching Buffy and Angel at the same time so I've also just come to the end of Angel Season 3. It felt weaker than Buffy on a side by side comparison to me. The plus side for me was Holtz. I thought most of his part in the Season was excellent. A good guy to begin with who has been consumed by hate. The dramatic moments with him appearing and taking Connor were all great. Sarjon was also great value. Also the ending with Connor and Angel was incredibly dark and thought provoking.

    A lot of negatives though. The main one being the love triangles which absolutely suck. There's 3 or episodes with baby Connor that focus on this aspect and they're pretty dreadful. I don't know if the show just struggles to do relationships like this well but I either didn't care or found it actively irritating. Angel and Cordelia have zero romantic chemistry and to have the rest of the cast pushing them together was awful.

    Cordelia herself has a torrid time as a character. Glowing, demon and almost completely unrecognisable as a person. I'm glad they ret conned the higher power stuff in Season 4 as it was complete nonsense to watch.

    Angel struggles as well. He says and does so much goofy stuff at the start of the year that doesn't seem like him at all.
     
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  2. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    I like Holtz too, great performance and great character. You do see his way of thinking also, he's a more human villain.

    I don't mind the baby episodes. I think they have just enough to show Angel's more tender side, and also sell the novelity of him as a Dad:p, but I think anymore would have sucked the narrative out of the show. Some of the stuff with Conner as a adult is much more annoying.

    Are you a fan of the love tranigle with Wes-Fred-Gunn?

    Which is your favourite episode?
     
  3. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Yep, as I recall Angel S3 was easily the weakest and my least favourite.
    It has a couple of really good arcs- Wesley's one especially. But the stand alone ones are very weak 'That Vision Thing', 'Old Gang Of Mine', 'Carpe Noctem', 'Provider'. the Darla with baby arc feels artificaially stretched out and Cangel is really badly done.
    Holtz is great though, and the three-part finale is quite compelling.
     
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  4. Wesley Junior

    Wesley Junior Potential

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    I admit Season 3 is a mixed bag with some good episodes and some not-so good. I wouldn't consider the baby episodes to be among the latter. They weren't great but I've seen worst this season like episodes that deal with the melodrama of romantic triangles, something Season 4 also suffered from.

    The Wolfram and Hart aspect of the season wasn't as compelling as it was in Season 1 and Season 2. The firm felt more like a moderately evil account firm than the Earth-based legal representation of the Wolf, Ham, and Hart meant to keep going the apocalyptic machine.

    Holtz was a great villain. You hate him for the things he has done to Angel but he being a victim of Angel's heinous acts in the past provides a sympathetic, human motivation behind his actions. But I wished he hadn't come back from the demon dimension. Him jumping into it with the baby and using their time together to brainwash him against Angel should have been the end of his arc. And I rather Justine didn't come back either. The rest of S3 should have been Angel struggling to free Connor from Holtz's brainwashing.
     
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  5. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Really? Worse than 1, 5 and maybe even 4? I would maybe put 3 as only second to 2. 1 for all its strengths had a lot of weakinesses also, and featured maybe the worse episode ever of the show. Five was a fitting close to the series, but I it still felt a lesser season when compared to the early ones. Four I need to refresh my momery on before commenting.
     
  6. vellavu

    vellavu Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Angel S3 has even more boring filler episodes than Buffy S6, really.

    If we keep the Offspring/Quickening/Lullaby trilogy, Waiting in the Wings, the Loyalty/Sleep Tight/Forgiving trilogy and Tomorrow, we can have a decent 8-episode season.

    The rest are all fillers. More than half of them are worse than Angel S1 MotWs.
     
  7. The Bronze

    The Bronze Rogue Demon Hunter

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    Black Thorn
    No not really. It's better than the other triangle but not by much. It felt a bit like Wes and Gunn just fell for Fred because she was there, lack of options. I never really felt much chemistry between Gunn and Fred either. Always felt more to me that it was done solely as an obstacle between Wes and Fred. Like I say I just don't think these things work as well on Angel for whatever reason.

    I struggle a little bit to distinguish between the episodes. I more get the flavour of the Season. Off the top of my head though I would say Fredless was a great stand alone episode. I also liked Sleep Tight because it was so tragic.
     
  8. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Fair enough, I seem to be one of the lone voices on it. Wes and Fred work better, but then Fred and Gunn do have kinda a brother-sister type thing, so I can see that too. I would say that it works partly because it creates tension between Gunn and Wes. It also does add to Gunn's character which was important.

    Waiting in the Wings is my favourite episode I think. Joss works his magic again.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 24, 2016 ---
     
  9. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Absolutely. I don't think its bad exactly, its just perhaps the least good. Then again my opinion ratings of all the Angel seasons is more fluid than the Buffy ones (which my watch-through really hasn't changed so far) but I remember being the most underwhelmed by S3.
    'Waiting In The Wings' and Wesley's 'Loyalty/Sleep Tight/Forgiveness' are excellent, Holtz is good. Sahjhan is fun, as is Lilah, 'Tomorrow' is good, that's all I can remember, there are good bits in other episodes but overall? The whole thing feels thin.

    On the other hand the not-so-good in my memory lingers: 'Provider' is bad, 'Dad' is okay the first time but really doesn't make sense on repeat viewing (why is Angel talking to a bomb when there's nobody around to see except us?), 'Double Or Nothing' (Gunn sells his soul for a truck!) and The Price (invasion of the demon slugs...) are just silly.
    Linwood and Gavin Park are poor replacements to Holland Manners and Lindsey- so W&H is at its least good. Groo shows up, Gunn unconvincingly falls for Fred, the niggles begin to add up.
    Again, not bad just the 'least good'. I'll stand by that at least until i watch it again.

    Season 2 has that great first half- but 'Belonging' and that Pylea ending drags it down for me. Still I'd rate highly for the really, really good episodes.
    Season 3 introduces Cangel, the death of Cordy as an interesting character, and teenage Connor- all the bad elements of S4 right there, so Season 3 gets the blame.

    'She'? I'm guessing. (Again, I think the Pylea episodes are far worse. At least 'She' feels like an Angel episode, just a bad one. Thanks Marti for your stonkingly unsubtle metaphors again!)
    But still we have some great stuff in S1, Doyle, Oz and the Faith two-parter. Season 1 has some top stand-alones- for Spike's episode alone I would never put it at the bottom of my list.
    It's main failing is the lack of big plot arcs- but that's because its busy establishing all the characters, their interations, the set-up and LA as a backdrop. It's also nicely cinematic.

    It's been a while since I've seen S5 and I agree that it does have a clunky first 10 or so episode ('Hellbound and Linage' being the exceptions) and some of those episodes are really ropey (Life Of The Party? The one about the mexican wrestler?) but from 'Damage' onwards there's some top-quality stuff in it and that final run is great.
    It actual gets better if you conside Angel: AtF as the unofficial S6- because then it doesn't end on a downer.
     
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  10. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    I can accept just about everything in that post, except you defending 'She'!:D Who cares if it feels like an Angel episode (not sure it does by the way). Its possible that IRYJ, Go Fish and Teacher's Pet felt like Buffy episodes doesn't change the fact that they stunk:eek: I'm not convinced that there were worse episodes than She, but certainly wouldn't say that the Pylea ones were worse. There are issues with them, but I think second time around I got more from them. Are you saying that Marti wrote 'She' or the Pylea trilogy? I thought Greenwalt wrote She?
     
  11. Fuffy Baith

    Fuffy Baith 2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member

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    Sineya
    Season 3 has some really good stuff in it, but then it's got some really bad stuff in it. Holtz is fine, but also kind of boring when he's recruiting Justine (who is terrible!) and building an army. I think they were trying to draw some parallels between Justine and Holtz vs Faith and the Mayor. The difference is that the Mayor had deep affection for Faith, and well Faith is just a better character. Plus wasn't Justine like in love with Holtz? Yea that was bad.

    I might be the only person that likes Carpe Noctem. :oops:But I do love the return of Darla. Baby Connor and dad Angel is cute. The Wesley stuff is great, that poor guy. I don't like Cangel. That seemed to come out of nowhere, and went nowhere. I'm not a fan of Gunn and Fred, I just don't see it. While there are to "Gunn centric" episodes, one in the beginning and one in the end, they are both weak.
     
    GwenRaiden: Pretty much agree with all of this!
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  12. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Was Justine terrible? I kinda liked her and think the actress did a good job, maybe she seemed a weak character because they were trying to pack too many characters into the season and couldn't really give her proper screen time. Never got the impression she loved Holtz just that she respected him.

    Agreed on this. Wesley turn into a darker and more broody character is fantastic to watch.

    I think maybe overall the flaw with the season is that there too many plots and changes in pace. It needed more focus.
     
  13. Fuffy Baith

    Fuffy Baith 2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member

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    Sineya
    Yes, she as terrible! In fact less screen time please! She's a wanna be Faith, with no personality. If that's the character they wanted they it was a bad choice in my opinion. I vaguely recall Wesley saying to her that it might be love, and she didn't deny it. Not quite sure, but in the end I do think that she wished she could have been with him. Which is all very weird and creepy. Plus, she slits Wes' throat! No wonder he chained her up in his closet! Thankfully we never see her again after s4ep1. Instead we get the great Gwen, who is so much better.

    It's definitely a bit of an over packed season. I think Holtz starts off good, then kind of burns out. I don't really like Sajahn. Lilah is great, Linwood is bad, Gavin is ok. I don't even mind Groo, but yea with the addition of Fred and Lorne, there's maybe too many characters that season. If you dropped the Cangel stuff and had the focus elsewhere, maybe it could have worked better.
     
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  14. Taake

    Taake Bella Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    Agree on this, these things don't really work very well on Angel, yet I'm not really sure why, but I feel like I always enjoy this show better when there's less focus on the romantic, triangles or not. Maybe it's something about the mood of the show in general. The romantic trifles just feel forced.
     
  15. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Don't think she was that much like Faith:D Oh so she wears leather and acts tough therefore their trying to make her into another Faith;)

    Maybe as Taake suggested the romance would be better lefted out of Angel, but if you accept it then I don't have too much problem with Angel-Cordy. It shows how much Cordy has grown that Angel would now see her as a equal and almost like a match for Buffy. And that Cordy is seen as Buffy's shadow self adds another nice spin on it. I don't like everything about Cangel, but there is enough good stuff for me.
     
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  16. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    I posted this on Tumblr and thought I'd share with my BB peeps.

    Reasons Why Season 3 Is the Worst Angel Season

    1. Angel himself. Who is this person that we see in s3? It can’t be Angel! Since when does Angel giggle, pout and has the energy of an hyperactive toddler? Since when is Angel not capable of thinking for himself, needing Cordelia to tell him what to do and what not to do? Since when is Angel’s happiness so unrestrained instead of subtle but genuine? Angel’s OOCness ruined much of the season. He only became himself, kind of, after Connor was kidnapped and even then he covered his grief with enthusiasm, something Angel had never done.

    2. Lack of a theme. Every Angel season more or less deconstructs what it means to be a champion and what kind of champion Angel is. Similarly, every Angel season returns to its mission statement: “If nothing we do matters, than all that matters is what we do.”. In season 1, Angel saves someone in every episode, with a special being Faith, in season 2, Angel gets distracted from his purpose but returns to it more determined that ever. In season 4, Angel tries to stop Jasmine and The Beast from killing thousands. In season 5, Angel tries to fight from the inside of the beast, culminating with killing the circle of Black Thorn. In season 3, Angel saves some people but mostly just works for money. Cordelia doesn’t have many visions and Angel is too caught up in being a father. The only villain of the season is mostly ignored and doesn’t cause others much trouble. As such, this season feels out of place in the bigger picture.

    3. Most of the episodes are unnecessary. Like I said above, season 3 doesn’t have a purpose in the greater scheme and most of the episodes are irrelevant, particularly the episodes before Connor. This season could be reduced to: Heartthrob, Quickening/Offspring/Lullaby, Loyalty/Sleep Tight/Forgiving, A New World, Benediction, Tomorrow.

    4. The season is boring and uneventful. Most episodes are absolutely forgettable.

    5. Cangel and Cordelia Chase. Angel and Cordelia’s romance ruins both characters. Angel becomes dimmer and goofier, a bit like Xander, and Cordelia becomes a Mary Sue. Angel’s problems: the curse, his vampirism, are ignored so that Cangel can happen. Cordelia and Angel have little chemistry and mostly just seem good friends.

    6. Love Triangles. Groo/Cordelia/Angel and Wes/Fred/Gunn, both love triangles do nothing for the characters and the season.

    However, things that partly redeem season 3:

    Lullaby: this is one of my favorite episodes ever! Imo, it’s Darla’s best episode and a wonderful send-off to her character. I’ve said this before, but I think that the conclusion to her arc was so beautiful and fitting. Darla was someone who for 400 years cared about only herself and never knew how to love anyone else. There’s nothing Darla wanted more than to live and be powerful, but her biggest desire was to be loved. By sharing a soul with Connor sue finally learns what’s like to love someone else and to put someone else first. It’s a wonderful plot twist, because instead of being loved by Angel (what she really desired), she gets something infinitely more important. For the first time ever, she understands Angel and he understands her, they’re equals.

    Lullaby is just a sweet, funny, dramatic, almost operatic episode. I love Connor’s birth and pregnant Darla is beyond adorable.

    Connor: while listening to Angel baby talk with Connor loses its appeal fairly early, baby Connor is adorable and teenage Connor is my precious, beautiful son who must be protected at all costs!

    Wesley: The beginning of Wesley’s amazing arc starts mid-season and it’s perhaps the most compelling aspect of season 3. Although I do believe Wesley acted a bit rashly and should’ve talked to someone about the prophecy, I’m nonetheless sad when he has his throat slit and becomes an outcast.

    Weslah: The beginnings of Weslah start late this season and Lilah’s interactions with Wesley are in part what make him a compelling character after leaving the team. I loved that Lilah gifted him Dante’s Divine Comedy and taunted him by saying that the last circle of hell is reserved for those who cheat, so Wesley wasn’t too good to work for W&H anymore. That was just brutal on Lilah’s part.

    A New World: this is probably my second favorite episode of the season! It’s a gem and everyone seems to look past it! This episode is so heartbreaking to me because of Connor. I adore him and he’s so lost and sad. He’s introduced to the worst of humanity quickly, makes a friend who OD’s and is left confused by the fact that his father seems to care for him. I also think he and Angel have wonderful chemistry and their scenes together tug at my heart strings. They’re so raw and emotional. I also love the direction of this episode, by Tim Minear.

    Benediction: apart from that ghastly scene between Cordelia and Connor, and let’s just ignore Cordelia in general, this episode is very solid. I think it’s the first time the writers really cash in on that connection between Angel and Holtz, and it’s the first time that Holtz is an effective villain, proving the lengths he would go to for revenge. I love his letter and his acknowledgment that he would go to hell after finishing his revenge.

    Holtz: while I’m not terrible fond of him, I think Holtz is an interesting character, played by a good actor. He’s manipulative, cold, calm, almost reasonable in his insanity. The writers could’ve done so much more with him imo (like they proved in Benediction) but he was still a good Big Bad regardless.
     
    Bluebird: Tim Minear's direction - slow mo, slow mo everywhere! lol
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  17. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy "I wanna see how it ends"

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    Sineya
    What's really terrible about season 3 is that Holtz just sits around waiting without attacking for like 8 episodes. Also, he's not that interesting in the first place. And then when we finally get rid of him, we have stupid foolish Connor on the last 4 episodes. Tomorrow is one of the worst episodes of Angel imo. Cordi choosing to be a higher being is so dumb and goes against everything she was. Connor sends Angel to the bottom of the ocean which is very hard to watch. Thank goodness Wes sleeps with Lilah and throws in an interesting storyline.
     
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  18. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    To be fair you can say that about any of these shows. Its a pacing thing. If Holtz just went over and attacked Angel straight away it would kill any tension or drama and they would blow of the season's biggest stories in the first couple of episodes. It is also because Holtz has a bigger plan.

    Besides the second half of the season I think 3 is one of the best seasons. 1 is still the weakest IMO. Has some of the worse episodes of the whole show, and was still finding its rythem for the most part.
     
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