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Season 4 question

Discussion in 'Season 4' started by GraceK, Dec 26, 2016.

  1. GraceK

    GraceK Potential

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    I have a couple of issues with season 4, and numerous rewatches have not helped. Maybe someone here can help explain ?

    What the heck was the point of the beast? I don't see how any of that helped in bringing Jasmine into the world. Connor really
    Didn't need an excuse to sleep with Cordy, he was half in love with her since he met her . Not to mention all of the horrible things EvilCordy does , does not add up to the character of Jasmine. For a being that sincerely seems To believe she wants to help the world, it makes no sense she would , "as Cordelia" sacrifice innocent virgins and try kill Angel, bring about rain of fire , and be a mustache twirling villain. As wrong as it may have been morally to eat people for the greater good , Jasmine herself did seem to want world peace. So yeah...everything from Beast to Angelus does not seem to add up.

    Can anyone help make sense of that?
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 26, 2016 ---
    Also, anyone think that maybe Jasmine wasn't so bad? I mean, if you think about all the
    Misery and despair in the world, and the horrors, rape and pain and murder...it almost seems like a few willing souls being painlessly consumed is worth it. :)
     
  2. BuffyBot22

    BuffyBot22 Potential

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    I have issues with this season for the exact same reasons. I have only watched it once, but it was recent so I am going to give my best shot at an explanation.
    Okay so here it goes:
    I think the Beast was necessary because Jasmine was trying to deceive everyone by hiding in Cordy, so Jasmine needed a living demon to do her dirty work so she could still pretend that she was Cordy, also being pregnant probably doesn't make doing evil things easy.
    I think all of the horrible things that the beast and evil Cordy do are things that must be done in order to bring forth Jasmine, otherwise she won't be able to emerge.
    As for her being nice, I'm pretty sure she is supposed to represent how when something is too good to be true, it probably is. How something that appears wonderful can be truly evil to its core. She isn't bringing world peace, she is bringing about world domination by basically mind raping you into making you believe that this is what you want and then it turns into complete chaos, especially if you try to stand up to her. This is world domination at its finest. Take Hitler for example, he appeared great and promised great things to his people and eventually brain washed them, he killed the Jews for the "greater good" just how Jasmine is killing people for the "greater good" but is it really? She has taken away free will, which is probably the most important human attribute- to be able to choose our fate and make our own decisions, to tell what is right and wrong. She took away free will, choice, and anything that makes us human. In a way she is one of the worst villains of the Buffyverse because she is something you don't see coming, something you support and worship even though she is evil.
     
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  3. GraceK

    GraceK Potential

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    All really good points and thank you for your reply. Ok so if all of it, the beast, angelus, rain of fire was all a ritual to help facilitate the birth of Jasmine, why was evil Cordy so..well evil? I mean in personality. She could have still done all those things wearing a Cordelia mask without having to go all full fledged villain...like killing Lilah which was extraneous.

    What I'm asking is, do you think that the way Cordelia acted was in fact the REAL Jasmine, and the happy shiny bliss and kind exterior the Gina Torres version played was the mask?
     
  4. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    For someone with a disdain for Christian theology, he has provided a remarkably accurate picture of the Antichrist. The Antichrist will, first of all, be an attractive person, which will persuade people to put trust in her. The Antichrist will command the trappings of a god and human sacrifice certainly qualifies. The Antichrist will appear to be a proponent of peace and peace definitely is one of her goals. And the Antichrist will solve long-standing problems. Let's face it, the BMW driver stopping cheerfully to let a pedestrian cross requires some of the blackest magic imaginable.

    People become slaves under her. One reason the Israelite slaves were freed in the Old Testament was to promote morality. A slave doesn't have a morality - everything is either forbidden or compulsory, the same as a soldier who is required to kill on command. Only a free person has any character growth and every part of the Jossverse is about stories of people who seek redemption. A slave has no redemption until he manages to escape.

    For these reasons, Jasmine was not only bad but a candidate for the ultimate evil - maybe not the Antichrist but definitely an Antichrist.
     
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  5. GraceK

    GraceK Potential

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    Awesome interpretation.
     
  6. BuffyBot22

    BuffyBot22 Potential

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    I think certain people that she thought she couldn't control needed to be eliminated before she emerged. As messed up as Lilah is, she is a strong character/personality. It would be hard to control her becauss Lilah pretty much does what she and W&H want.
    I think this is also why she wanted to eliminate Angel because she thought she wouldn't be able to control him and that he would figure it out and defeat her which he eventually did.
    Not too sure why she wanted Angelus, because we all know Angel is way easier to manipulate than Angelus. Angelus does only what Angelus wants. He wants to be in full control, so clearly this was just a plot device to bring out Angelus and bring Faith back.

    I definitely think evil Cordy was the real persona of Jasmine. Jasmine is truly evil, but she must give a shiny, blissful exterior to gain control of her followers. They wouldn't follow her if she showed her evil self. She had to show them something worth following.

    I love this interpretation. That's basically what I felt about it, without using the Antichrist example. I used Hitler instead. But, yes the antichrist interpretation is basically a perfect representation of Jasmine.
     
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  7. Riderofapocalypse

    Riderofapocalypse Potential

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    Exactly my only problem with Angel Season 4. For a few lives a day/week./ whatever, countless lives are spared from hunger, terrorism, war, etc. I have been told in the past that Jasmine is supposed to be a metaphor for the exchange of freedom for leadership/government protection. The metaphor is there, no doubt. But the application for the metaphor was poorly done. Really poorly done.

    As for the best. Honestly I don't really care how much of a point there was to add him in the show. That somina bich was bad ass.
     
  8. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Potential

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    I actually thought Jasmine was Jesus rather than the Antichrist. It probably comes from from semi-Bible Belt upbringing that seems to be more obsessed with the End Times (and who the Antichrist is this week, who is alive and well known of course) and Revelations than salvation itself. The sun is blackened, there's fire and other disasters, and basically stuff that happened in season 4. And then there's a new heaven and new earth where free will no longer exists, all is in peaceful bliss where people can't hurt each other, and yet it's still warlike against evil. The "body of Jasmine" makes me think "the body of Jesus/Christ."

    Here, a comparison about the new earth and the Borg:

    The Borg of Heaven

    I figured this was Joss's take on Revelations. I bet it would've been much closer if he'd been able to get away with it. (I used to ask some fundies about why they praised God for free will but then looked forward to when God took it away, and if it's a good thing then why God didn't do it sooner, but that just upsets them and I no longer ask. Maybe Joss used to ask that as well which helped inspire the Jasmine arc.)

    Though as to the moral implications (I did like Lilah giving AI the thumbs up for stopping Jasmine), perhaps that can be summed up from this scene from The Invasion:



    I know I'd choose free will even if it meant a hellish life with others who also have free will, but even I don't know if that's actually the best choice.
     
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