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Spike in Family

Discussion in 'Season 5' started by Priceless, May 23, 2017.

  1. Priceless

    Priceless She doesn't just fight evil, she redeems it

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    Just watched this ep for the first time in ages and I was disappointed that no-one thanked Spike for his help.

    They didn't see him fighting the demon, and possibly saving Buffy's life, so that's understandable. But by punching Tara he showed up her family for the liars and rednecks they were. Surprised Tara, one of the nicest people in the verse, didn't say thank you.

    I know it's pushing it, because Spike is (technically ;)) evil, but Tara could have invited him to her birthday party as a gesture of thanks. Am I expecting too much? :eek:
     
  2. Taake

    Taake Tweedledee Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    Haha, yes, you are expecting too much, it's your Spike-goggles talking ;)

    Nah, but seriously, I guess maybe they just figured any kind of thank you might've happened off-screen and it just wasn't prioritized to be in the actual script, Spike is basically just used as a tool here to get the plot to where it needed to go. And he did punch her, I mean he did it with a reason, but I suppose it'd look "bad" on TV to have a guy walk up, punch a girl, and get a thank you for it... I'm just saying, I'm sure there would've been someone out there, writing something negative about it even if it served a purpose to the plot...

    Also, not sure they wanted to 'hang out' with Spike at social events at this point.
     
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  3. Priceless

    Priceless She doesn't just fight evil, she redeems it

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    Damn those Spike-goggles they get me into so much trouble :)

    You're probably right, I cannot imagine Tara not saying thanks, so it must have happened off screen. Spike did propel Tara's story forward, but I think it also added to his story, in that he jumped in to assist Buffy and intentionally caused himself pain to help Tara.
     
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  4. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    I imagine Willow is in charge of the guest list. Poor Willow, it is so important for her to create a perfect day for Tara.

    I am not really sure if Spike is being nice here. He helps Tara, but he seems to be amusing himself, first and foremost. I do not really buy that he likes Tara's father. These sort of mind games aren't really Spike's style.

    Spike and Tara shares a moment in series 6. The whole 'muscle cramp' thing. Tara may be teasing, but they seem friendly.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 23, 2017 ---
    [​IMG]
    We're not wearing Spike-goggles.
     
  5. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Like Spike said 'I don't really care what happens.'
    If he's not invested then why should he get thanks? Why would he even want thanks? He's just there because he's amused by the situation or whatever. Doesn't reallt care about Tara.
    Hell, he seemed impressed with the emotional hatchet-job papa Maclay did on his clan.
     
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  6. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    I agree with everything except the last part. I think Spike is just trying to remind everybody how evil he is. Spike likes to hang with the cool girls, like Dru and Buffy. He isn't really the patriarch-type.
     
  7. sosa lola

    sosa lola Scooby

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    Do characters necessarily get thanked for doing good? Spike wasn't the only one there for Tara, every single Scooby stood up for her - and they did it believing she was a demon - and none of them got a thank you. Tara appeared grateful enough without saying thanks and I'm pretty sure all the characters knew she was thankful.
     
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  8. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    Why is it always 'Why did no one thank Spike in this episode or that episode?' ? I see this a lot and I don't get it. Rarely if ever do I see that with any other character. Strange.
     
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  9. GraceK

    GraceK Grr Arrg

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    Because Spike doesn't get the gratitude he deserves for NOT killing people!!! Don't you understand he should have a parade thrown in his honor and possibly a temple erected for him? :)
     
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  10. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    The freaking SUN literally shining out of his ass wasn't enough? The cosmic space already deemed him worthy, geez.
     
    GraceK: :) I love this hahahahahahaha
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  11. Stoney

    Stoney Spiked!

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    Yeah, OK. :s Aaanyway...

    @Priceless, As I remember the episode, Spike is very much in the early stages of accepting his feelings for Buffy. He tells Harmony he is going to watch Buffy being attacked/killed and I think he was partly kidding himself at that point it really was why he was going, he does visibly battle with himself before giving in and helping her out. Now, as you say, the gang didn't see him doing this and even if they had, he's made it clear before that he gets involved as/when it suits him and because he likes fighting demons. So as much as he may help, the impression is that it is incidental, he does it for himself and his own amusement really. It was only a couple of episodes before that he was trying to screw Buffy over when she had asked him to help save Riley in order to get the chip out instead. So I really don't think the group would have any reason to see his help with the demons or with Tara in any different light yet. The tone between Spike and the Scoobies at this point is one of vague tolerance at best and although I could see Tara saying a thank you to him at some point because of the way she is, I'm not sure the dynamic really would make any of them feel that accepting he helps as he pleases at all warrants thanking him for it when it happens.

    I think there is a great degree to which Spike enjoys busting Mr Maclay's lies, exposing him and that is about it appealing to his "I go where I want and do as I please" approach I think, more than there being any desire to want to help Tara. He outwardly praises Maclay's cruelty too, so it really doesn't seem that he particularly cares. The hit seems light even and I assume the blast from the chip was minimal (another small indication perhaps that he'll take on pain if it suits him to I suppose). Now whilst I can also see an argument that it could be him subconsciously reacting to seeing someone being weakened and pushed around, I still think that again would be a self-focused response. Spike enjoys pushing back against people, beating them, like taking revenge on the party goers who bullied him as a human. So again it would fit to his own agenda and for his own satisfaction to spoil Maclay's plan than it being driven out of any want to help Tara specifically. Alternatively, (or maybe additionally!), if it was indeed spurred by a general willingness to help the group because it was the stand Buffy was taking and he was supporting her, it was still done with a casual disregard that has his actions flying under the radar and not seen as being anything other than doing as he pleases at the moment anyway I think.

    The path Spike takes in S5 is very much about the start of change, accepting his feelings, and then letting them start to impact on his choices. This then explores the potential that his feelings for Buffy could have in producing positive results, before S6 follows to examine the limitation of what he is capable of unsouled because of his nature and an underlying selfishness. These early stages when he is fighting his feelings show his willingness to help reluctantly and with it being somewhat hidden from view still. But eventually we get to him making a clear/significant choice when he protects Dawn for Buffy and she finally 'sees' his actions in Intervention and he is recognised for them at that point and then asked to help protect Dawn after. So times like this are here to give contrast and also for us to start to see this period of transition that the gang don't know is underway yet basically. So him being somewhat dismissed and it being seen as him just suiting himself and skirting around the outskirts of the group just fits still at this point. Spike's presence is also there a little to contrast with Riley, who isn't there helping because he is starting to separate himself from Buffy because of how he is struggling with his feelings about their relationship.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
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  12. Priceless

    Priceless She doesn't just fight evil, she redeems it

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    I agree he did partly do it for his own amusement, because he enjoyed the fight, but I also think he wanted to protect Buffy as he quickly realised she couldn't see what she was fighting. As for punching Tara, he was taking a risk. It would have been fine if she wer a demon, but it only caused him pain and he must have known that could have been the outcome. Was he just playing the odds, hoping Tara was a demon? Or did he accept that he'd be punished, but it was worth it to help her, and by extension help Buffy as Tara's friend.

    :) With my rose coloured glasses firmly in place, I'd argue that Spike did want to side with Buffy, to look good in her eyes. He just got lucky that right at that moment he could show her that he wasn't as evil as she believed him to be (or as he believed himself to be perhaps) I also think that he left Harmony with the absolute intention of helping Buffy, no matter what he may say.

    Agree with everything you say here. Spike is limited by his lack of soul, he is evil and the scoobies are reliant on the chip to keep him in line. In S4 he didn't want to help the scoobies, and actually actively sided with Adam, but in S5 he is reluctanly helping, as he does in Family, mainly I think due to his feelings for Buffy. If you want to see good behaviour, you have to reward good behaviour and I think what Spike did for Tara counts as good behaviour, especially for someone who doesn't have a soul and takes his moral cues from a Slayer. Their dismissal of Spike just seemed counter-productive, whereas encouraging his good behaviour may have seen better results and made him more inclined to assist them in the future, especially with the looming battle with a hell God.
     
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  13. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    Spike is definitely calling the bluff. The whole story rings of bullshit. Spike is just quicker on the uptake than the others.
     
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  14. Stoney

    Stoney Spiked!

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    Yes, on that occasion he definitely jumped in to help Buffy once he realised that she was in danger and because of his feelings for her. But I still think he was a little in denial and was telling himself that he was going to watch Buffy get taken out because it would be 'easier' if he was no longer being torn up over his feelings. Think of how accusing he is about what she has done to him in Crush. But I do think that really he was going to try and make sure she didn't get killed. Self denial is quite comforting at times and Spike is struggling with how he feels and believing it is 'wrong' too. His march to go and watch the Lei-Ach attack her with the possible hope to end his torment, but in actual truth to protect her, reminds me of his lyrics in OMWF when he sings...
    The torch I bear is scorching me,
    Buffy's laughing, I've no doubt [takes a drag]
    I hope she fries
    I'm free if that bitch dies!
    [tosses cigarette away angrily, then jumps up]
    I better help her out.


    :p

    Well, as I said, I can see the argument that supporting Buffy's stance was a possible motivation, but I don't think anything is straight forward for him at this stage. That he may have been deliberately doing it also to look good in Buffy's eyes because he 'solved' the situation is also a fair point and could well be another aspect in the mix. That would certainly be supported by his attempt to seem more acceptable to her when he tries to dress casually and chat/socialise with her in Crush. All of these things may not be totally consciously chosen but in fact all be in the melee spurring his actions.

    Spike's willingness to endure pain if he wishes is something that we see plenty of in Intervention, so I don't think the brief blast from the chip that he was risking would have been enough to put him off doing as he pleased and testing his theory to pull down Mr Maclay. It really does meet a lot of his personality traits to just jump in and do what he did because he wants to, despite temporary pain, as well as for the other motivations we've discussed too.

    I don't think they have any reason to believe that he will become more reliable though at this stage and they don't believe that he is perhaps capable of doing anything for any other reason than satisfying his own wants yet. It takes some time in the season for them to learn why he is looking to change how he is seen and then believing that he can be a reliable ally takes longer. It is a transition that needs to be somewhat earned and worked on during the season as his betrayal with Adam and his very recent attempt to get the chip out are hardly indicative that they should put trust in him and believe that a bit of support might prove fruitful and not just open themselves up to being used again. Not yet anyway, not this early in the season.
     
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  15. GoSpuffy

    GoSpuffy Vampire Lover, I mean Slayer

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    Black Thorn
    Good question. Better question: why did no one thank Spike for saving Buffy from burning up in OMWF?
     
    Priceless: He was rewarded with a kiss at the end :-)
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  16. Stoney

    Stoney Spiked!

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    Well he did walk off. :p

    I really think you'd have to assume that kind of thing happens off screen if you're not shown it or that it doesn't happen because of how it would disturb/not fit whatever the current dynamic is between whichever characters. I don't think I ever saw Spike saying thank you to Buffy and the gang for taking him in when he arrived chipped, or for taking the tracker out of his back or for covering who he was in front of Riley at first... etc. And, if I'm remembering that correctly, it's because they were only tolerating each other and it wasn't about building a relationship and being friendly. Actually thanking each other or praising one another's actions is most often superfluous to the ongoing plot, wouldn't fit the dynamics or it needs to be seen because of the significance of it on a particular occasion. It's like when Buffy thanked the gang for bringing her back. It was shown and was significant because she didn't mean it.
     
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