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Spike never truly "loved" Buffy

Discussion in 'Season 6' started by Anyanka Bunny Killer, Jan 7, 2017.

  1. Anyanka Bunny Killer

    Anyanka Bunny Killer "I got these evil hand issues..."

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    Black Thorn
    So...you've been trying to brutally slaughter someone for awhile, but never managed to do so. Then one day you wake up and, BOOM! You decide you're in love with the person you were slavering to murder just a short time before. Awww. Precious.

    And lucky sod that you are, the object of your...attention is overcome with a sudden lust, and soon you two are banging away. Sometimes you chat. You share thoughts. It must be love, you're utterly convinced of it...yet there IS that small...um...detail of you trying rape her in the bathroom. But it was only that ONE time, right? Ain't love grand?

    No, because THAT'S not love...more like a twisted, unhealthy obsession.

    Thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2017
  2. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

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    I am in no way a spuffy or even spike fan, but I think there are multiple definitions of love so I'm not sure. All I know is that their story in season 6 (or any season for that matter) is not the kind of love that appeals to me.

    I think the guy from Passion of the Nerd explained it well in his Lovers Walk review video when he made the difference between selfish love and selfless love.


    just in case what I mean isn't clear, it starts at 3:54.
     
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  3. Xanderectomy

    Xanderectomy Professional Procrastinator

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    I pretty sure Spike loved Buffy and thats not just in season 5,he's had a thing for Buffy since S2 when he first came on the show and its also not very subtle i think the reason why he was obsessed with killing Buffy is cause he loved her.
    However i would argue that Buffy never loved Spike, in S6 she really just used him for sex and in season 7 she's very vulnerable and he just happens to be there.
    Buffy never truly shows any love towards him when theres no life or death apocalypse going on (same for angel).
     
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  4. Zenseem

    Zenseem Evil, skanky and kinda gay

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    Black Thorn
    I agree with you on that. I don't think what soulless felt was love: it was lust. Pure lust, and it dates back to season 2. He had a thing for slayers, like an obsession or something, and he felt like he had to have her somehow, but it was nothing like love, even when he refused to tell Glory about the key. It was passion and desire, but not love.
    But he chose to get a soul and it made him a better man, and it was for Buffy. But spuffy was such an unhealthy relationship. It was bad dor both of them, but I think they have a shot in the comics.
     
  5. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Spike was obsessed with Buffy which is why his "no you don't but thanks for saying it" line after she told him she loved him was good, it was him acknowledging that what he and Buffy had wasn't "love" (no matter how much the show tried to tell us it was). Spike may have wanted Buffy to love him but he accepted that wasn't going to happen. Real love is a two way street.
     
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  6. Tsquared

    Tsquared self inflicted

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    I think when Spike replied to Buffy in Chosen with the above comment, it wasn't an acknowledgment of their relationship never being true. It was more of his admission to her that he knew she didn't feel the same way about him (and never did). He was simply thanking her for trying to appease him in his final moments.

    Their relationship was definitely always tilted towards Spike and his feelings, that was obvious throughout their "arc". I also think this "loving without a soul" topic was touched up a lot on throughout the series, Buffy did not even believe what Spike was feeling was actually love in the beginning. But Drusilla admitted that vampires can indeed love even without a soul in the episode Crush, which kind of centered around whether or not a vampire could truly love soulless. Their love just wasn't the same like that of humans, but was often more twisted and sadistic. Which is expected between two demons. In my opinion love is subjective, and when you look at a vampire from the Buffyverse it's a completely different and it should be. It's what gave the whole vampire/slayer love stories depth.

    Do I think Spike loved Buffy by the end of the events in Chosen? Of course. He had a soul at that point and was essentially a human with superpowers. Do I believe his love for her in season five and beyond may have stemmed from his history with slayers, and began with lust? Definitely. Often times when you love someone as much as Spike loved Buffy, obsession can easily get blended into it and we obviously saw this.
     
  7. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    Obsession isn't love. Stalking isn't love. Abuse isn't love. Attempted rape isn't love. Do I think Spike with the emotional maturity of a 5 year old would think that obsession = love? Of course. And considering he had no experience as a human and his only teacher was Drusilla (consider the source here), it's no wonder his idea of love is 'tie her up and torture her until she loves me again'. Souless vampires are only capable of demonic love. The whole spectrum they can't feel due to lack of soul, especially selfless love.
     
  8. brittles

    brittles Scooby

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    Sineya
    I agree that at first it was probably not much more than a weird obsession probably born from the fact that Spike knew he could no longer harm Buffy now that it was all chips a'hoy in his head. He had a lot of down time to develop this lust for her since he couldn't kill her I guess. However, that being said I think that these feelings do develop into something more than just obsession and lust over time. This by no means is saying that I condone his attempted rape of her or any of the other stalker like things he pulled but in the end I think we see Spike mature into someone who really does understand the meaning of love. In season 7 he realizes that she truly doesn't love him. He's no longer trying to convince himself or her of feelings that do not exist in Buffy for him. With this realization comes clarity and a new understanding of what it means to feel love real for Buffy. Now it's coming from a true place.
     
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  9. POTN

    POTN Townie

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    I think first you must do that thing that is most difficult of all (and that I cheated on in the Lovers Walk review,) define what you mean by love. Until you do that it's purely a subjective emotional discussion.

    Could it've been love if it was only how Spike felt about Buffy and not a two way street? Why not? That's what unrequited love is.
    Could it've been love if Spike acted abusively? Do normal people ever hurt the ones they love? Of course they do.
    What is the difference between love and obsession and are they mutually exclusive?
    Did Spike and Drusilla love each other? They both seem to think they did. Drusilla says vampires can, just not wisely.

    Which is what brought me to drawing the distinction between selfish and unselfish love. If the soul is a conscience in the shows lore, then the lack of one would put a significant damper on a vampires capacity for empathy. And thus their ability to love unselfishly. To do something that isn't in their own self-interest, JUST for the other person. But I think it's tough to make the argument that they don't love the object of their affection.

    Could be wrong though.

    Edit: Added image for reference sake. :) It's much less precise than you'd think.

    Screen Shot 2017-01-10 at 1.51.47 PM.png
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
  10. Alara

    Alara Townie

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    I believe it started out as an obsession, first an obsession to kill the slayer then an obsession to possess the slayer sexually but by the end of s5 I think he realized how much he truly loved her not Buffy the slayer but Buffy the woman.

    When he lost her and she came back in s6, he gave her breathing room. She kissed him. She initiated the sex. She made it a sexual relationship. She took advantage of his love for her to try and feel something.

    So when she ended it, he couldn't accept it for what it was and because he didn't have a soul, he couldn't comprehend the wrongness of what he did towards the end of s6.

    S7 is when he really accepts what she is to him and he learns to adapt to that. But i believe he does truly love her by the end.

    And I think on some level Buffy really does love him but I don't think she really loves Angel at least not in a real substantial way. Their love is very surfaced to me.

    Many might disagree with my opinion but Bangel's relationship was way more superficial and more of a puppy love type thing to me. Spuffy had a lot more growth and depth...going from sworn enemies to lovers to finally best friends.

    Bangel always stayed in one place.
     
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  11. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Of course Spike loved her. And she loved him as well. That's what the showrunners wanted so that's what we got. Regardless if it made sense or not.
     
  12. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    If Buffy didn't love Angel then she was even more petty in her jealousies. But perhaps it gets tied into her Daddy issue...perhaps I should be glad they didn't make Giles a romantic interest instead. :p

    Though now that I think about it, Buffy showed being genuinely hurt when Spike had the quick thing with Anya in the Magic Box even though Buffy made it clear it was over between herself and Spike. I wonder if that's based on the misconception that women can't distinguish lust from love (and though I've known females like that, such a condition seems to afflict males more, I've even seen one as bad as Xander), or if it ties into Joss's seeming love for girls crying (or otherwise deeply upset) over guys they have no claim over because the guy is then involved (even if just a "ships passing in the night" sitch) with another female.

    Hmm...looking to see if there's any Spuffy vids on YT set to Love the Way You Lie (seems perfect for those 2 in seasons 5-6, maybe 7). Ah, there's more than one. I just watched one, it was pretty good, but it had a lot of the AR scenes in it so I won't share it.

    Ironically, Spike is more mature in love than Buffy in season 7. Now that I think about it, poor Spike to see Buffy with Principal Wood (perhaps it's a good thing that the season 7 mistakes didn't have Buffy going off the rails over Faith with Principal Wood later as again moving into her "territory" even if she's "done" with them) and Angel. Spike was the one to do the sacrificing. Not only at the end, but when he learns the First has a plan for him he says he should leave and Buffy says no...because she's not ready for him to not be there yet (which is sweet, but come on, where's the Buffy that tearfully sent Angel to Hell?).
     
  13. GraceK

    GraceK Grr Arrg

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    Of course Spike loved Buffy. Honestly that is something I never doubted. His whole character is based around the fact that he is a lover. I think in season 5 and 6 it was a selfish, vampire love, but he loved her. In the only way he knew how. Once he has a soul, in season 7 it becomes a much deeper, selfless love. They actually become friends, and a more real relationship develops. Just my opinion :)
     
  14. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Sure Spike fell in love with Buffy, that's not really the issue with me. Vampires can love, that love is just limited because its all demon-y.

    But nobody has ever been able to explain WHY Spike came to love Buffy though, how can an evil demon find a good, heroic person attractive? What is the thought process? What do they like about them?
    For all his non-verbal we know why Angel loves Buffy; we saw it and he even articulated why several times.
    Same with Riley since we see the entire relationship beginning to end (Briley's key strength as I see it).
    But we never get the same with Spike; it's just 'Bam!; obsession with killing powerful women + too many shocks to the brain/blows to the head = wet dream/love.'

    We know what Spike thought of Buffy & Angel's love- he thought it was pathetic mush and not 'true love', so why did he fall for Buffy? He spent no time with her, he didn't know anything about her as a person.
    All he knew is that she was a strong woman who constantly foiled his schemes and hit him in the face a lot. Oh, and her also found her attractive physically.

    Truly, no deeper love has ever been known.
     
    RomanticSoul: All 100% facts. And I have the same question you do. Where did this love come from?
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  15. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    But why the sudden change? That's my problem with the 'Spike in love with Buffy' story. They literally have him waking up from a wet dream and him declaring he loves Buffy because of one dream. This is one of the worst ways to do start a love story.

    Even I as a non-shipper of Bangel or Spuffy have to say that this would be fanon. No matter how much you might ship someone else with Buffy, it simply can't be denied that Buffy loved Angel.

    Whether people agree with you or not doesn't matter so much. Buffy the character and show do that enough already, disagreeing with you I mean.
     
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  16. POTN

    POTN Townie

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    And so maybe a perfect way to start a VAMPIRE love story. Lust first. If he's the emotional equivalent of a teenage boy then confusing lust and love is perfectly reasonable. "I follow my blood. Which doesn't exactly run in the direction of my brain."

    And that boner compass opened him up to the possibility of getting to know and see her in a way he never would've allowed himself before. Through her mother's illness and the way she started to treat him.

    "I know you'll never love me. I know that I'm a monster, but you treat me like a man, and that's..."

    Great love need not necessarily have a great beginning. What matters is that journey. And once his soul is restored he has finally learned to love her unselfishly.

    " I'm not asking you for anything. When I say I love you, it's not because I want you, or because I can't have you - it has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try... I've seen your kindness, and your strength, I've seen the best and the worst of you and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman."
     
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  17. GoSpuffy

    GoSpuffy Vampire Lover, I mean Slayer

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    Black Thorn
    Even if it wasn't clear that Spike loved Buffy back in S5, S6 of S7 shouldn't the fact that they continued to have a relationship in the comics and are currently in a relationship confirm the fact he loved her? Are we supposed to think that he thought he was in love but he was wrong but then he fell in love with her at some later date? That doesn't make sense.

    As for why Spike fell in love that's easy, he admired Buffy for her fighting skills from day one, he trusted her to make an alliance in S2, they worked together to kill his enemies in Lovers Walk, he went to her when chipped for help. Spike was all about Buffy for a long time before he realized it in his dream.
     
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  18. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    All the way back to Halloween in S2 when he was lecherously watching videos of her like the true creeper he was.
     
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  19. GoSpuffy

    GoSpuffy Vampire Lover, I mean Slayer

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    Black Thorn
    I think you mean attentive gentleman caller, I can see how that might come across as "true creeper" but it's got a whole different vibe.
     
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  20. POTN

    POTN Townie

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    One of my favorite bits (which was probably accidental) is the line he gives Drusilla about Buffy in School Hard.

    "I'll chop her into messes."

    Which of course is what Othello said he would do to Desdemona...his wife.


    Edit:
    For the record I've never totally sussed out this reference. It's a disgusting visual and a VERY specific Shakespeare quote. In the original context of the episode I'm not sure what they intended. The original plan was Spike was supposed to die midway through the Season so it seems VERY unlikely that the line was supposed to foreshadow anything.

    More likely is it played into foreshadowing Surprise and Innocence. Angel's turn and becoming murderous. Or perhaps Buffy having sex with Angel and "killing" him, bringing back Angelus.
     
    GoSpuffy: unintended foreshadowing? Or Joss was that brilliant?
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2017
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