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Spike never truly "loved" Buffy

Discussion in 'Season 6' started by Anyanka Bunny Killer, Jan 7, 2017.

  1. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    Spike is a text-book romantic/Byronic hero. In the old days, you had to kill your girlfriend's cousin and commit suicide to prove you were really in love. Spike's flaws are obvious, but a lot of people miss his virtues.
    [​IMG]
    Angel did not rape Buffy, but he wrote this in blood ... When Angel has sex with Darla, he throws her through a door. When she asks him what he is doing, he responds, 'It doesn't matter'. Bangel fans can be a little high and mighty. Here is this older guy, who always knows best, who keeps tabs on you, tells you what is best for you, dumps you, shows up out of nowhere and beats up your new boyfriend...
     
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  2. Antho

    Antho Scooby

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    It's funny I think totally the opposite. I like the character of Spike. However I find that it is a character who is squarely idolized and his flaws are almost never put forward by the fans.
     
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  3. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

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    He didn't mean to means absolutely nothing. He was going to. A lot of rapists don't actually see what they're doing as rape but it doesn't change the fact that it is. So Spike can very well not mean to rape Buffy or see it as rape, when the other person doesn't consent and you don't stop then you are attempting to rape that person. I have no problem with not blaming soulful Spike for what soulless Spike did but let's not downplay what soulless Spike did.
     
  4. Cordeliagirl

    Cordeliagirl Oh, Buffy, we're sisters! With different hair.

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    Sineya
    Nope, you get that wrong, is that buffy never love Spike until end.
     
  5. ChaseRules

    ChaseRules When it comes to dating I the Slayer.

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    Sineya
    And lets not forgot says he loved you from the bending but still took a couple of months to say anything nice to her or help her out in any way.
     
  6. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    There is a magical theory. It is not really a theory. You just need to re-watch Fool For Love.

    Spike is a Romantic. He is likes fighting, individualism, confidence, strong emotions and personality. He often equates fighting with sex. Buffy is the one girl he cannot kill. Do I need to draw a diagram or smthn?
     
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  7. ChaseRules

    ChaseRules When it comes to dating I the Slayer.

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    Sineya
    A power point worksheet maybe ?
     
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  8. dcai0830

    dcai0830 "Shoulder to shoulder. I'm yours."

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    Wow I have a LOT of feelings about this post of yours. Let me try and list them:

    1. Angel didn't write that Angelus did. Also, while atrocious slut shamming it does not compare to attempted rape. Not that Angelus would not have raped Buffy. I'm sure he was more than capable of that atrocious act but he just didn't.
    2. Are you attempting to equate Angel'a boing session with Darla as non-consensual? I just don't understand the parallels here. Darla has been trying to get Angel back since Season 1 of Buffy. She is confused when he finally gives in but by no means do I think this was written as non-consensual. Rough yes, desperate and dark (along the lines of Season 6 Spuffy sex scenes) but mutual.
    3. Finally on a lighter note, Riley needed the crap kicked out of him. The douche thought Buffy had cheated on him with Angel how messed up is that? (And he started it)
     
  9. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy "I wanna see how it ends"

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    Sineya
    Once again with the Angel is not responsible for anything Angelus does but Spike is responsible for everything he does before he gets his soul. I'm seriously getting tired of that.
    Darla was not trying to get him back since Buffy season 1. She was dead for 4 years and it took a few weeks for Angel to become obsessed with her. It is a lot like season 6 Spuffy scenes when Angel and darla have sex. But somehow that never gets mentioned.
    And seriously, Bangel fans act like Angel is flawless. They say true heroes don't try to rape you. Well true heroes shouldn't try to kill themselves or try to become evil either. There's always 2 sides.
    Finally to answer the original question, Spike did love Buffy. Without a soul, he loved her but couldn't handle it right. So he did some great things and some terrible things for and to her. With a soul, Spike undoubtedly loved her and was only devoted to her, and did some great things for her.
     
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  10. Antho

    Antho Scooby

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    I understand you but if people say that it's because of all the Spike's fan who say that : "Spike has humanity in him and he loved Buffy without a soul" ! I don't want debate about if it's right or wrong but what I mean is if people think he has a human conscience before he gets his soul, then they judge him accordingly !
     
  11. dcai0830

    dcai0830 "Shoulder to shoulder. I'm yours."

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    I don't hold ensouled Spike responsible for the AR. Not all Bangels think alike... perhaps? I just wanted to comment on the distinction and parallel made between what Angelus did and Spike did. Neither is ok but neither was done by an ensouled creature.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
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  12. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

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    I'm sorry that you are getting tired of it, but as long as people ship soulless Spike with Buffy, then that «double standard» is going to happen. And not because of the fans, but because of the show itself. They gave a different treatment when it comes to the 2 ships and both groups are screaming that their vision of the soul canon is the real canon one.

    For me, as long as people deem soulless Spike worthy of Buffy, then I'll feel like I have the right to criticize soulless Spike and Spuffy's story in general.

    Also, I don't know who's the They you're talking about, there might a bit of generalizing going on given that's you're fed up. I also don't remember Bangel fans ever acting like Angel was flawless. I think you've missed a lot of posts from @Carrie Hopewell if you think that and I know I have done my fair share of criticizing him myself when it comes to season 5 of AtS.

    As for the bolded : the first part expresses a severe lack of empathy (and a bit of shaming) for people suffering depression who have suicidal thoughts or who have attempted suicide. Just because you have one bad day where you want to end it all and it doesn't work or you don't get away with it doesn't mean you can't ever be someone worthy of being a hero and if you really do think that then you have to also think Buffy isn't a hero since she also tried to kill herself. The 2nd, yes that is a big flaw, one I have always acknowledged and it's part of my favorite arc for the character and even far from being the only bad thing he did during that arc. It works for me as being part of Angel discovering how dark and lost he can get even when thinking he's acting for the greater good. There's always been a tension and duality when it comes to his hero self and his demon self and sometimes the 2 mesh in a very disturbing way. That was the best example of it. I forgave him for those things because he did see the error of his ways and learned from it, apologized to his friends, etc. I don't have that in season 5 so I tend to be harder on him there.
     
    Carrie Hopewell: Yup, I'm all for criticizing Angel when I have to! Thanks for mentioning me :)
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  13. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy "I wanna see how it ends"

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    Sineya
    It's complicated, because I love Spuffy in season 5 and most of season 6 despite the fact that I don't deem Spike worthy of Buffy until after he gets his soul. So that is why I protest to the judgement of him soulless.
    Yes, the "they" is probably an overreaction but it comes from the fact that I think people go over the top with Spike criticism, which leads me to believe they are going over the top with Angel praise, though it may not be the case.
    I'm not even gonna argue the kill yourself argument; you are right in that Buffy also tried to kill herself and I'm certainly not gonna refrain from calling her a hero, so I retract that statement.
    As far as Angel with Darla in season 2, it just seems incredibly similar to Spuffy in season 6. And I may be wrong, but I think non Spuffy shippers are most bothered by season 6. So maybe I'm not reading the right posts, but I feel like one is judged more than the other. Or they are not judged the same way. Or because Darla was a vampire and naturally accepted forced sex it becomes different.
     
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  14. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

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    I'm confused... you don't judge soulless Spike for what he's done or soulful Spike for what soulless Spike has done? Please tell me it's the latter lol.

    I understand that it feels like there's a lot of Spike criticism but he's also one of the most liked characters on the forum. Very few characters get close to the same amount of love that he gets.

    I guess I never saw Angel/Darla as forced sex. It definitely was wrong for him to want to lose his soul with her but the sex itself (without the intent) was never something that came across to me as abusive, etc. But if you see it that way then fine. I guess I can understand it since a lot of people see the balcony scene as hot and consensual sex and I'll stop there, you probably understand where I'm going with this.
     
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  15. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy "I wanna see how it ends"

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    Sineya
    My wording may have been weird but I definitely meant the latter lol. And I'll refrain from going on about the balcony scene. I appreciate your attempts at understanding although clearly we are not going to fully understand each other on this.
     
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  16. Puppet

    Puppet Hands in the hair!

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    Black Thorn
    That argument is immediately invalid. Because then I would wanna ask; how did Angelus recognize and know who Buffy is when he lost his soul? If it was his soul that knew her? Why would Angelus have any memories of her without his soul?

    A soul isn't a personality, it's not a second person being shoved into an already existing one. A soul is intangible, it becomes a part of Spike, integrating itself within him. How is that not obvious?
     
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  17. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    Because memory remains, it's in the brain. Simple biology. That's how the vampire demon gets it's personality to begin with. From the former human. But it's not the person.

    And unless you can prove to me what a soul actually is, especially in the muddled way Whedon handled it, then how you interpret it is as valid as how I interpret it. And actually souls are tangible, as we have seen at least once on either show. Angel's soul was trapped in a jar. How can something intangible be trapped? And the orb traps Angel's soul as well. We have also seen it with Buffy and Kathy when the part of Buffy's soul that Kathy had sucked out went back into Buffy. How is that not obvious?
     
  18. Puppet

    Puppet Hands in the hair!

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    Black Thorn
    Intangible does not mean invisible. Other than that, you're right, I came off a bit too strong for something that's an opinion, so we'll agree to disagree.
     
  19. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    That's the beauty of Whedon's mess. We can all see it how we want, how it makes sense for us. You see it one way, I see it another.
     
  20. Puppet

    Puppet Hands in the hair!

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    Black Thorn
    You couldn't be more right. I'm new to the board (like, two days new) and have been non-stop reading arguments and discussions, and so I think I just got a bit heated in one of my first responses, lol. At the end of the day, it's about opinions, which we share with each other willingly, expecting not to get our heads bitten off for doing so :)