1. Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Ten thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

Taking W&H and the memory wipe

Discussion in 'Season 4' started by bespangeled, May 2, 2016.

  1. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

    Joined:
    May 26, 2014
    Messages:
    3,389
    Likes Received:
    2,027
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Tucson
    Reputation:
    5,726
    Black Thorn
    This is after their memories were taken - and after Angel made the executive decision to take the job offer for all of them. This just shows that they trust Angel.

    Once again - please show me where Fred and Wesley took the jobs - or where Lorne and Gunn took them knowing what they were getting into. They myth that they all jumped at the chance and knew what they were getting into is kinda kaplooey, as Fred would say. Before all 4 of them got together, their memories had all been altered. They became different people right then and there - so the people who trusted Angel when they walked into the building believing they had free choice were sold out.

    ILLYRIA
    You are a summation of recollections. Each change is simply a point of experience.

    WESLEY
    (closes that drawer and opens the one below it)
    We are more than just memories.

    ILLYRIA
    And yet Fred changed the moment her memory did.


    WESLEY
    (shocked)
    Fred's memories were changed?

    ILLYRIA
    In places.

    WESLEY
    Can you see what they were before?

    ILLYRIA
    No.
    (blinks)
    They're gone.
    (Wes grabs a file out of the drawer and stands to read it)
    Does this change your view of Fred? Is she still the person you thought she was?

    WESLEY
    (his jaw drops as he reads the file)
    No. None of us are.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 2, 2016 ---
    So Dawn appearing and having their pasts rewritten affected the Buffy characters, but W&H removing memories didn't affect the Angel characters? Didn't you say we are our memories? How could they have free will?

    --- Double Post Merged, May 2, 2016 ---
    Therapy - medication. Yeah, Connor has been through a lot but there are kids who grew up in war zones with similar experiences. We d know Connor had no other family to see murdered, raped, torn to pieces - life can be pretty hellish on this planet.

    There are demon therapists out there, just like there are demon everything else. He could have taken W&H and gotten the best care possible for Connor as well as Cordy - without having the memories of his friends wiped. Then - knowing all the facts - they might well have freely made their choices and joined up.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2016
    Snyder likes this.
  2. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2008
    Messages:
    13,060
    Likes Received:
    4,258
    Reputation:
    23,704
    Black Thorn
    You lamented in the other post that no one wants to have meaningful discussions and everything was too 'hows the weather' yet whenever I try you constantly misquote me and have me saying things I never said. So...

    How's the weather? Is it raining?
     
    RomanticSoul: bespangled always puts words in your mouth you never said. I'm used to it.
    RomanticSoul likes this.
  3. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

    Joined:
    May 26, 2014
    Messages:
    3,389
    Likes Received:
    2,027
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Tucson
    Reputation:
    5,726
    Black Thorn
    I thought that was a legitimate question based on what you've said in other posts. If changing memories changes the person, why would that not apply in both cases?

    I live in the desert - rain would be good.
     
    Mr. Pole: I think you may have misread my posts regarding Dawn and the memories.
  4. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2008
    Messages:
    13,060
    Likes Received:
    4,258
    Reputation:
    23,704
    Black Thorn
    LOL
    We had a massive hail storm last night. Even at 5pm today there were still piles of ice chunks sitting in people's yards. It went from 80 degrees to 50 in the span of 6 hours.
     
  5. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2006
    Messages:
    13,677
    Likes Received:
    2,109
    Location:
    rome, georgia
    Reputation:
    25,221
    You just answered your own question here. Dawn's appearance required that the Scoobies' memories of certain facts be removed, and also rewritten, substituting what would by definition be lies for what actually happened, dating back all the way to "Welcome To The Hellmouth," in Season 1. From the point hat they leaned that Dawn was the key, and therefore had not been a part of that time, all of their memories would have had to be suspect. Since the monks who formed Dawn were primarily concerned with protecting the Key, it's pretty safe to say that nothing was changed that would have made any drastic changes in the general history of those involved.

    Wolfram & Hart, however, would have every reason NOT to leave the team's memories of the past unaltered if, by making a few slight adjustments, here and there, they could only slightly influence the outcome. Exactly how they changed what actually happened, we will never know, but new memories had to be created to fill in the gaps where memories of Connor had been removed. What did they "remember" that replaced the events leading up to, during, and following Wes' abduction of Connor, and Wes' subsequent being expelled from the group? What replaced Connor's involvement with Cordy and Jasmine? Those facts, and others, could be manipulated in such a way as to add just enough favorable attitude toward Wolfram & Hart Fred, Wes, and Gunn. They didn't have to even be good memories, just memories not quite so bad.

    Remember, when dealing with Wolfram & Hart, we're not just dealing with your common, run of the mill demons, vampires, and evil humans. These are evil LAWYERS, determined to present their case in such a way that will present their case in the best possible manner, even if doing so involves, not exactly lying, just not telling the entire truth, or presenting the facts in such a way as to make their offer more attractive.

    Joss knew exactly what he was doing when he made the most diabolical single force in the Buffyverse a law firm.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 2, 2016 ---
    Not if it results in flash floods

     
    Ethan Reigns likes this.
  6. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

    Joined:
    May 26, 2014
    Messages:
    3,389
    Likes Received:
    2,027
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Tucson
    Reputation:
    5,726
    Black Thorn
    Ooops - you are so right! My bad!

    Oddly anough, it was thetopher who made the point that rewriting her memories changed Buffy from the person that she had been for 4 seasons.

    Does it make me a bad person if I admit I am jealous of your weather.

    Back to the question - do you have free will if key memories have been taken from your mind, and others altered? The tour was taken while Angel killed Connor, and the memories were altered before they all got together in the lobby. So did the AI team really have free will?
     
  7. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2008
    Messages:
    13,060
    Likes Received:
    4,258
    Reputation:
    23,704
    Black Thorn
    I do not believe their "free will" was taken. I do not believe that their memories were taken before Angel finalized the deal. They all were planning on doing it anyway; the 'mind wipe' came later. There is only one person that Connor affected and he was the only character that was altered when the memories of Connor were altered. But at least they DID alter him, unlike everyone else on Buffy.

    I dont think Connor had anything to do with them accepting the deal. It was a statement on the evil that resides in all men and man's ability to be swayed and give in to that evil, even/especially when it comes with pretty packages.
     
    gite63 likes this.
  8. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

    Joined:
    May 26, 2014
    Messages:
    3,389
    Likes Received:
    2,027
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Tucson
    Reputation:
    5,726
    Black Thorn
    Given the fact that something needs to be taken out, and therefore memories have to be created, I agree that those memories would be favorable to W&H. There's no way I can see that they could even do neutral.

    Flash floods are part of rain around here - the dirt is as porous as saran wrap. We mostly direct the rain through the washes, and toward the aquifer in the Rillito river, which is normally dry. Then everyone goes to see water in the river - particularly if the water overflows it's bank. Living in the desert is weird. When we have hail, people post pictures of it on FB.:D

    This is the Rillito river most of the year.

    [​IMG]

    The first day when we hit 100 degrees is called Ice-break on the Rillito.

    This is the Rillito after rain:

    [​IMG]
    --- Double Post Merged, May 2, 2016 ---
    But the scene I posted show that this isn't true - the memory wipe happened before anyone made a choice.
    Gunn and Lorne said they were staying. Wesley and Fred didn't.
    They toured while Angel killed Connor - and met after the memory wipe. That wipe had to include new memories to fill in the gaps - so this was an alternation as well as a wipe. Illyria said that Fred became a new person after the wipe - which means that our Fred didn't have free will.

    They might well have chosen to stay before the wipe, but we don't know. I doubt Fred would have stayed, and Wesley might not have as well.

    That statement is true - but I say it really just applies to Angel at this point. Gunn's test comes later.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2016
  9. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2008
    Messages:
    13,060
    Likes Received:
    4,258
    Reputation:
    23,704
    Black Thorn
    They made up their mind when they went to the limo.. thats why they were all slinking away. They all had decided they were going unless there was something heinously seen. Which is why they keep looking for the evil.
     
    thetopher and gite63 like this.
  10. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

    Joined:
    May 26, 2014
    Messages:
    3,389
    Likes Received:
    2,027
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Tucson
    Reputation:
    5,726
    Black Thorn
    They made their minds up to check out the offer - not to take it. Fred before the memory wipe armed herself - that's how little she thought of them. Wesley went to release Lilah from her contract. Neither of them chose to stay - that much is clear. But they trusted Angel, and went along with him - After the memory alterations

    Still, it's very apparent that Wesley is a completely different character after the memory wipe. It's the cutting cynicism he lost - and that would have been enough to warn him off.

    Gunn had his memories wiped, and frankly his compass flipped. The Gunn after the memory flip was more than willing to support evil, to lunch, golf, and craft ways to help evil against bigger evil. The Gunn we know is the one who stayed in hell, and who really saw W&H for what it was.

    Lorne might well have stayed as soon as he saw the roster.:D
     
  11. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2008
    Messages:
    13,060
    Likes Received:
    4,258
    Reputation:
    23,704
    Black Thorn
    Neither of them opted to leave either. But I feel by going that did make a choice. They all would have stayed. The belief they lost 'free will' doesnt play into it. Look at their backgrounds, history and choices along the way. They would always have accepted as it fits their characters vanity. The temptation and their own desires were too great to pass on it.
     
  12. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

    Joined:
    May 26, 2014
    Messages:
    3,389
    Likes Received:
    2,027
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Tucson
    Reputation:
    5,726
    Black Thorn

    WESLEY

    Impressive. And does the Watcher's Council know you stole the only known copy of the codex when you left?

    SIRK
    There is no council.

    WESLEY
    (flips through the book) Not anymore, no. So you opted to, what, uh, play for the other side? Cross the line?

    SIRK
    These are complicated times. Lines become blurry. How did you know?

    WESLEY
    Something about Watchers and—(punches Sirk, knocking him out) libraries.

    This is Wesley before the memory wipe - he sure as hell doesn't look to me like he had any interest in staying.
    He came for a specific reason, and that reason wasn't to check out W&H. He knew they were evil. He came to release Lilah.

    But after the memory wipe he really was a different person.

    WESLEY
    I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about you. It's lost meaning for you. Spike says you no longer believe in the Shanshu prophecy.

    ANGEL
    (Sighs, looks at Wes)
    Of course not. The prophecies are nonsense. You know that. Oh, come on, Wes, after everything we've seen the past couple of years? "The father will kill the son."

    WESLEY
    What are you talking about?

    That person would follow Angel into hell - trust him absolutely - and he did. Once his memories were restored he believed that Angel killed Fred in order to join up with more evil. All of these are radical shifts - and each time memories have been altered.

    It was the first Wesley who went into the building, and the 2nd Wesley who agreed to work there. When the original Wesley was changed, his free will was taken - and there's nothing that shows that man would have stayed, IMO.
     
  13. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2008
    Messages:
    13,060
    Likes Received:
    4,258
    Reputation:
    23,704
    Black Thorn
    It was the first Wesley who went into the building, and the 1st Wesley who agreed to work there. There is nothing to suggest he would not have worked there or nothing stated that he was a different person when he agreed to work there. I've already stated I do not believe their free will was taken so there really is no more point in discussing it.
     
  14. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

    Joined:
    May 26, 2014
    Messages:
    3,389
    Likes Received:
    2,027
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Tucson
    Reputation:
    5,726
    Black Thorn
    You've stated your opinion, and I stated mine - even saying IMO more than once. Agree to disagree is really all you need to say. Acting like I am somehow doing something wrong in replying to your opinion with my own - huh?
     
  15. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2013
    Messages:
    7,405
    Likes Received:
    4,966
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The Moot, England
    Reputation:
    13,707
    Sineya
    AND the dialogue shows that they know exactly what they're doing- their taking a job with W&H.
    Surely if they were being mind-controlled by Angel then they wouldn't have been so troubled by the choice. But here the dialogue outlines both their worries, but overall they think its worth the risk.

    All of them were seduced. Lorne by glamour, Gunn by being 'more than the muscle' that he (in his eyes) had been reduced to over S4. They were ready to sign up- Gunn didn't even care what anyone else did.
    With the others it just took a little longer- Wesley and Fred both saw the resources and were seduced, tempted. Thet would have more resources/tech/knowledge with which to fight the good fight.
    With Angel it wasn't the fancy cars, the living conditions or being abole to stand next to a sunlit window- it was to save his son.

    All of them gave into temptation- that's what the episode shows us (or me anyway).

    Not really, the episode is about temptation- W&H gave them this massive aparatus to 'fight evil with' and after the terrible year they had all had- sky falling in, one of their own been taken over by a higher power and 'ending world peace' the saw the offices as a way to make a bigger difference.
    In the context of S4 their decision makes a lot of sense- its a risk, but a calculated one.

    Not at all, and I'll explain why below.

    Connor had been- in his own eyes- used and betrayed by everyone he had trusted since his return. Angel, Holtz, The fang gang, Cordelia, Jasmine- her lie was the worst of all because Connor willingly bought into it.
    When he was prepared to blow himself and a bunch of innocent people up he was long gone in terms of therapy- there was no trust left.
    At least what Angel did- giving him another life- gave him a chance at a fresh start.

    I said in theory Buffy was a different person that had been retconned by Dawn's presence. But...

    Ironically its the whole Dawn/Buffy thing that blows a massive hole in your theory. We see that 15+ years of added memory doesn't change Buffy at all- she's still the same person making Buffy-esuqe decisions.
    And yet your theory seems to hinge in the idea that a year and a half of edited events would alter Fred and Wesley in such a way that they would make a different choice about a major decision- despite the fact that Wesley has been fighting W&H since his arrival way back in S1.
    There's nothing else to back it up- just suposition, and not one that's supported by any in-verse explanation.
     
  16. Taake

    Taake Tweedledee Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    4,961
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Stockholm, Swe
    Reputation:
    39,666
    Black Thorn
    Yeah, I don't buy it. That sounds like a real world solution, "demon therapy" would have been just... well it would have been Loan-Shark-Buffy bad. Besides, they needed Connor off the show. If Connor's going to demon-therapy he would still be a part of Angel's life and storyline, there would still have to be mentions of him, or visits as he makes progress... I can't seriously see this as an option at all.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 3, 2016 ---
    Also could we keep this thread on topic and leave the weather to a better suited area. Thanks.
     
    thetopher likes this.
  17. Iwearthecheese

    Iwearthecheese Scooby

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2016
    Messages:
    572
    Likes Received:
    532
    Gender:
    Female
    Reputation:
    1,027
    I think its totally in-character for Fred and Wesley to take the deal, pact-thing even without the mind-wipe. Wesley is a completly (bankrupt) moral relativist and Fred seems overwhelmed with temptation and just follows everyone else.
    The one I don't buy is Gunn- Mr. black and white, good vs. evil. He took ages just struggling with the idea of a 'good' vampire, I never really saw him dealing with the ultimate evil law firm.
    But he's absolutely the one who signed up first no reservations. So basically they all get what they deserve in my view.
     
  18. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2015
    Messages:
    7,572
    Likes Received:
    3,687
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    London, UK
    Reputation:
    7,101
    But then with Gunn's up bringing he never thought he would ever be in that sort of position of power, so for that reason I can totally see why he would do it.

    See you're a big fan of Wes and Fred then:D
     
  19. Snyder

    Snyder Potential

    Joined:
    May 6, 2016
    Messages:
    126
    Likes Received:
    111
    Reputation:
    91

    I think Angel did 2 bad things: wiping their memorys and making the decision for the entire team, but I'm not sure they are related. Sure they showed interest in going there, all of them Angel as well, but we'll never know what would be their decision, may be they accepted may be not, point is Angel didn't care and didn't ask. Then they went with him because they trusted him, not knowing the deal he made. I don't think they would have followed him if they had known. That why he didn't tell and made the memory wipe. ...so 3 bad things really
     
    bespangeled likes this.
  20. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

    Joined:
    May 26, 2014
    Messages:
    3,389
    Likes Received:
    2,027
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Tucson
    Reputation:
    5,726
    Black Thorn
    Since you can't show me where Wes and Fred take the job - obviously the scene doesn't exist. Neither Fred nor Wesley accepts W&H - Angel accepted it for them. Not all that coincidentally, it is Fred who pays the most, and Wesley.

    You thought they were being mind controlled by Angel!:eek:
    No, it was W&H - Angel allowed them to rape the memories of everyone on his team, and put things in their heads.

    I completely agree - except that I see that as the arc curve for the season. It wasn't over in one episode - it was barely started. They all had different arcs centered around the same seductions. Angel went in there thoroughly corrupted, but knowing what he had done. Fred had no idea what was going on.

    Buffy went into the fight against Glory knowing that regardless what her memory told her, Dawn was a construct. Angel robbed his team of that knowledge. They lived within a constructed reality, and had their experiences removed because that meant they would refuse the constructed reality.

    Look at how everyone felt about Gunn when they knew he had allowed W&H access to his mind. How would Wesley, Fred and Lorne knowing that Angel allowed the same thing to happen to them, and then erased the memory?

    Think of all the events Connor was key to - W&H bringing back Darla - Darla getting pregnant - W&H trying to get the baby - W&H spiking Angel's blood with Connor's - and so on. All of those memories had to be removed, or altered. Wesley's entire arc that began with taking Connor was gone. Two complete years worth of memories, wiped and replaced with whatever W&H wanted to replace them with.

    I was kinda in universe - and if W&H can help Cordy, they could definitely help Connor. As Fred said, who hasn't been held captive in a hell dimension? There was no reason - in universe - to alter reality and rape the memories of the Fang Gang.
     
    Snyder likes this.