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Taking W&H and the memory wipe

Discussion in 'Season 4' started by bespangeled, May 2, 2016.

  1. Snyder

    Snyder Potential

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    did he allow the mind wiping or did he specifically asked for it?

    LILAH
    Mmm, I knew there had to be a reason you took the tour. Dead, not stupid.

    and

    ANGEL
    People like you, this place, that's what's wrong with the world, Lilah. I will never be a part of this. (sighs, stares at the image of Connor on the screen) Not the way you're hoping. (walks up to Lilah) Now let me tell you what the deal's gonna be.

    seems to me that he is the one calling the shots
     
  2. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    I agree - but even if W&H insisted, and Angel allowed, he is still responsible.
     
    Snyder: yeah, he is
    Snyder likes this.
  3. Taake

    Taake Tweedledee Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    They didn't really help Cordy though... they kept her on life support. It's not like they could save her / restore her.
    And I'd say it's a big difference being a healthy happy adult being sucked into a hell dimension, and spending your formative years, heck you're entire childhood and most of your life in one.
     
  4. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    And yet they took the job- all of them made a decision. That's what the dialogue showed me, not that Angel made it for them- they're not children, they all chose to get in that limo, and all of them could've walked away if they wished.
    They all knew what they were signing up for.

    You seem to be suggesting that Angel said 'we're all in this now' and Wesley and Fred meekly accepted.

    Yes, and its on their own heads. Even when the memories are returned to Wesley he sees that.

    I see it as a natural response to the trauma of ending Jasmine's reign- the BIG picture that they all saw and ended. After that they perhaps felt they could've just go back to making little decisions, especially if they maybe thought they'd been puppets all along.

    Not at all. They all knew that W&H was evil and that joining the firm was risky. The dialogue I posted showed that.

    That's really only if you buy into Jasmine's 'I've been planning this forever' line, which isn't truth, merely her (i.e the bad guy's) pov.
    And whilst some of what you say would've been altered- by what we don't know- I see zero evidence that it affected anyone's free will. They all chose to knowlingly join up with an evil organisation- that they didn't forget- and they all came to regret it.
     
  5. Snyder

    Snyder Potential

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    or he could have made Connor forget his past with Holtz and have all their memories altered like the monks did with Dawn and kept a happy Connor with him
     
  6. gite63

    gite63 Gone

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    Sineya
    Even taking the memories of the whole Connor deal, they all knew that W&H was an EVIL law firm. Spike knew it. Buffy and Co. knew it. They shouldn't have entered that limo, if they knew themselves, knew they were too weak to fight temptations. It doesn't mean that they weren't good or that they hadn't good intentions, though.
     
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  7. Snyder

    Snyder Potential

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    true, but apart from Lorne, we don't really know if they would have entered that limo. Or accepted to work at W&H. They did both when Angel did, because they trusted him and he betrayed that trust hiding his real agenda and wiping their minds
     
    bespangeled likes this.
  8. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    I'd get rid of the word meekly, and add 'because they trusted Angel'. Without memories of Connor, and all of the past 2 years, they really had no problems with each other anymore.

    I'd agree - if they had any memory of Jasmine. But without Connor, there was no Jasmine.

    The dialogue you posted showed Wesley and Fred trying to figure out why they are even there. They followed Angel because they trusted him. They trusted him because their memories had been removed and changed. It's kind of interesting to watch Wesley as his clothing changes back to early season Wesley - a physical sign of how he reverts to an earlier time.

    This affects more than just Angel - it ruins his support system as well.

    ANGEL
    Well, yeah, you know, I've been feeling a little bit, uh...
    (stands, walks across the room)

    WESLEY
    Disconnected. Yes, I've heard. But I think it's more serious than that. You blame your melancholy on your new position, but I don't think it's about the type of work. I think it's because you've lost hope that the work has meaning.

    ANGEL
    (flips through files)
    Of course it has meaning. We save people's lives.

    WESLEY
    I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about you. It's lost meaning for you. Spike says you no longer believe in the Shanshu prophecy.

    ANGEL
    (Sighs, looks at Wes)
    Of course not. The prophecies are nonsense. You know that. Oh, come on, Wes, after everything we've seen the past couple of years? "The father will kill the son."

    WESLEY
    What are you talking about?

    I don't see that - so YMMV. I think Gunn and Lorne might well have taken it anyway. But not Wesley or Fred.
     
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  9. Iwearthecheese

    Iwearthecheese Scooby

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    I like Wesley in S1, 2 and most of 3. But he really pisses me off in his 'dark' phase but improves in S5 (Thanks Angel if you did brain-wash him!).
    I never really liked Fred though. She's just too cutsey. I'm much prefer Illyria.
     
    Mr Trick: I think the word you are looking for with Fred is sweet and charming.
  10. Kana

    Kana Soulless human

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    I'm just randomly replying because this post was near the end and it looked interesting. :).

    I'll quote what I wrote in another forum, because: laziness.


    They did though.

    WESLEY
    You want to talk about me. All right. The last girl I was with I had to chop into little tiny pieces because a higher power saw fit to stab her in the neck.

    That's from Lineage.



    All of experiences can affect us but in this scenario, we cannot guarantee that they wouldn't have taken the deal, had they remembered Connor.




    I agree with you here though. The memory wipe did serve to isolate Angel.

    We can't know that. We still don't know exactly what fake memories were.
     
    thetopher likes this.