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The Mayor

Discussion in 'Season 3' started by amberjane, Sep 8, 2016.

  1. amberjane

    amberjane Potential

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    i love the parallels between faith and angel that i never really picked up on before- makes sense since i never cared for either of them... but even down to the whole torture the watcher thing as faith does in ats with wesley. they could have done a lot more to develop her character, if they did i mightve liked her, so maybe more faith would be good.

    also whoever mentioned band candy, that was a good answer to the original topic at hand. i wish he had a few more effective scenes/episodes like that, where trick was doing his biddings.
     
  2. Priceless

    Priceless She doesn't just fight evil, she redeems it

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    The first thing Faith does is grab a stake from Buffy, and the look on Buffy's face says it all. Buffy disliked Faith from the get go, but everyone told her it was because she was a jealous only child who'd never had to share, so she tried to like Faith, but she never really did. Basically everything Faith did and said rubbed Buffy up the wrong way, from the very start, and Faith was equally jealous of Buffy, from the start. The tragedy was that they were never friends, not that they were friends who fell out.

    As for Buffy going dark, Faith is the dark. Pointless to have Buffy go to the dark side when Faith is already there. There's no drama in that. The whole pont of Faith is the contrast, to highlight the difference, to show a different Buffy.
     
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  3. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    It wasn't love at first sight, but at the end of their first episode together, Buffy saw that Faith's annoying attitude was a facade to mask her fear, and at the end of the episode they bonded ("You hungry?" "Starved"). In the following episodes they got closer, and there were lots of moments in which Buffy DID like Faith a lot. In 'Bad Girls', Buffy was neglecting her friends because she was spending so much time with Faith. Buffy and Faith WERE friends, IMO. I just wish they were MORE friendly, so that the break-up would be more painful.

    Also - if they were never friends, then there's no tragedy there. What's emotional about two people who never liked each other starting to fight?

    It's more complicated than that. Yes, Faith was a contrast to Buffy in many ways, but she was a contrast that was meant to illuminate a side of Buffy. That's why we saw Faith tempting Buffy to the bad side - like when she convinced Buffy to skip classes, and to break into shops, and to knock out cops. Characters like Faith exist to show a side of Buffy, not to show something completely different.

    Also, if Buffy was never meant to go dark in season 3, then why put all of these lines about Buffy's dark side in the story? Faith constantly says that Buffy has a dark side, and Buffy's reactions seem to signify that Faith's right. Even Xander seems to fear that. That's why I was disappointed - there was so much build-up to Buffy's dark side, but in the end she flinched and didn't finish off Faith. Which I could appreciate if it was a deliberate choice by Buffy (like if she decided in the last minute to not kill Faith), and if we saw what led her to that choice, but the actual scene plays it as if Buffy just got shocked and Faith punched her before she could finish the job. That was disappointing to me.
     
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  4. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Sometimes I think Angel would've been better off staying dead at the end of season 2 to really ramp up the emotional factor for Buffy but then we never would've gotten "Lovers Walk" so it's swings and roundabouts. At the very least he should've maybe left after LW and then have Buffy dealing with the consequences of her decision.

    Maybe they should've had the Mayor hook up with Joyce so he could've kept a closer eye on Buffy. Joyce would be oblivious as always and think that after Ted, the likelihood of her new man being a bad guy would be unlikely.
     
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  5. Priceless

    Priceless She doesn't just fight evil, she redeems it

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    Most of cinema, literature and tv that is about two people with opposing views (who don't like each other) fighting. It's actually the basis of most drama. Two differing philosophies of life fighting for supremacy. That's Faith and Buffy imo. Faith wins the early rounds because Buffy wants to be her friend, takes pity on her and changes to fit in with Faith. But eventually the authentic Buffy reappears and Faith cannot deal with the real Buffy.

    Faith brings out the worst in Buffy and you could say she leads her astray, but only because Buffy wants to be lead. They aren't friends, they want to be, they try, but their differences are too great. They are the most truthful with each other only when they are on opposing sides and fighting to the death.

    I agree Buffy was shocked when she stabbed Faith. She wanted it, but when it happend it was still a shock. Had Buffy killed a human before? She certainly hadn't killed anyone this close to her. I'm glad it shocked her, because that's another difference between her and Faith, that she stopped short of being a murderer.

    Also, who would want Faith dead from a story perspective. She's a great character with a lot more to give, so I am glad Buffy didn't kill her.
     
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  6. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Then why have them as allies in the first half of the season? If Buffy and Faith are supposed to be classic protagonist and antagonist, then why not have them as enemies from the start, like Buffy and Spike in season 2? Or like Daredevil and Wilson Fisk? Or Harry Potter and Voldemort? If Buffy and Faith start as friends and become enemies, then they're more like Magneto and Charles Xavier, or Captain America and Iron Man. Which is great! But it demands to establish their relationship first before they become enemies, so that their fight would be more interesting. And if Faith was supposed to be a Voldemort-like antagonist, then having her be Buffy's ally in the beginning of the season was a huge mistake - it takes away from her scariness and wastes time that could be spent on other things. If Faith was a Voldemort-like antagonist, then she should have been with the Mayor from 3x03.

    Um, when you say that "Faith wins the early rounds", you mean metaphorical rounds? As in, Faith convinces Buffy that she (Faith) is right?

    Faith brings out the worst in Buffy? I don't think so. I think there were many moments where they brought out the best in each other. In 3x03, for example, Faith was the one who was influenced by Buffy, and she was influenced in a positive way. And again, I do think they were friends. Not as close as they should have been, IMO, and it's clear that Faith wanted to be Buffy's friend more than Buffy wanted to be Faith's friend, but still. And really, Faith is a lot less honest with Buffy when she's evil - she's all posturing and ego contests then. Faith was a lot more honest when she wasn't evil.

    But it's a weak ending to the arc - what is it saying? Why did Buffy win? Why did Buffy NOT kill Faith? And what does it all have to do with the main message of the season? I don't see a message in that scene: does it say that Buffy didn't kill Faith because it's not in her nature? Because that's a pretty bleak message - it means that people who have messed up natures are just doomed, and people who don't have a messed up nature are inherently better. I don't like that, and I don't think it's true. Or is it saying that being shocked by murder is the difference between a hero and a villain? Because that doesn't make sense - Faith was ALSO shocked when she first killed a person, and that didn't stop her from spiraling into villainy. I just don't get what that scene is SAYING. What is it saying to you? What message do you take from the ending of 3x21?

    Oh, absolutely. I love Faith. But that scene still feels like a cop out - like the writers were going to end it with Buffy going dark and killing Faith, but chickened out because they didn't wanna lose Faith. And I don't want that scene to end with Faith's death! But I want a better ending to Faith's story in season 3. I want an ending that feels like the natural conclusion of the thematic arc of season 3, and that's not what I got there
     
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  7. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    I hadn't noticed that. Interesting.

    I know that's what I'm supposed to take from the season 2, but I don't believe, at all, that Buffy was obsessed with Angel. I think what she felt for him was genuine love, but, being a teenager, she acted like any other girl in love for the first time. When it came down to it though, Buffy was always there to save the world. And, actually, she doesn't completely break down. She breaks down for 5 min of 'Innocence' and kicks Angel in the crotch at the end. Buffy acts like any other person would, in fact, way better than most people, adult or teenager. She reacted better than Giles when he saw Jenny's body and Giles is the adult. I think it's healthy for Buffy to act like any other woman in love and save the world, and I believe she does both save for some exceptions ('Bad Eggs').

    As for season 3:

    I have a problem with Joyce too. She didn't know her daughter very well.

    I don't think she is behaving like a swoony schoolgirl. I had a hard time understanding the break up myself in a way. I saw Buffy has a girl who was never going to make it past 20, so dating someone who can't age wasn't a problem nor was dating someone on a nocturne schedule (she slays at night).. The sex was the only thing that constituted a real problem and many people have sexless relationships for many reasons (not saying Buffy should but it's not that easy). In AtS practically no one goes out during the day, but I guess different shows...BtVS is about being normal. IWRY was the episode that convinced me Angel did the right thing, because Buffy wanted a normal boyfriend (which to her equals normal life, for some reason) badly. And anyway, I'm digressing. Buffy didn't react well in the beginning (after the sewers scene), but she made it clear to Willow and, later, Angel that she understood Angel's decision. Buffy imo was never very mature and irritated the hell out of me most episodes, so I think she's okay in 'The Prom'. I do get your point that Buffy should be the one doing the break up, but that had nothing to do with Angel. She was also acting like a schoolgirl who would die without going to the prom in 'The Ptom' and who would die without being crowned queen in 'Homecoming'. You also can't say she's mature in 'Bad Girls'. All of this is Buffy acting like a schoolgirl, because she was one. Imo this has very little to do with Bangel being a bad influence on her.

    I don't get the problem with Buffy crying after a break-up. That's what people do. She stills saves the day, so can't she cry in peace? Crying is healthy and doesn't make anyone immature.

    She spent 1 minute crying over the end of a break up, as she should. It doesn't matter that she had killed Angel before, she was still sad about the end of a relationship. To put it simply: imagine you date someone and it ends, because of forces beyond your control, so you feel sad about it; then six months later you start dating that person again - because now you know it won't end the same way- and you end up breaking up again, for different reasons, but still lame reasons beyond your control... even though you had already experienced something similar isn't it natural to cry again? I don't have a problem about her crying over losing Angel again, because the alternative doesn't make any sense. She loved him, she obviously going to be unhappy about it.

    As for the usefulness of Bangel in season 3 beyond the individual scenes... Angel was Buffy's backup when Faith started working for The Mayor and provided emotional support, which informed the audience of Buffy's feelings, and Angel is what drove Buffy to her final confrontation with Faith - when she poisoned Angel. Also, the Scoobies forgiving or accepting Angel was important to the characters. Bangel wasn't supposed to be what it was in S2 - a new relationship that turns Angel into Angelus, changing Buffy forever yada yada yada. In S3, Bangel is a more 'normal' relationship (after 'Amends') that provides drama, romance, action and ends naturally (kind of, it's still BtVS).
     
  8. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Not really the same as Giles had just lost someone he loved. I do take your point though.

    There is a reading of Joyce that says she knew more than she was letting on. Think its even suggested in the show once. Think she was partly in shock and denial. To me she's a pretty bad mother up to early S3. Though KS performance is what keeps me interested. After that I think Joyce becomes much more likeable.

    [QUOTE="Guy, post: 1222522, member: 13553"]Then why have them as allies in the first half of the season? If Buffy and Faith are supposed to be classic protagonist and antagonist, then why not have them as enemies from the start, like Buffy and Spike in season 2? Or like Daredevil and Wilson Fisk? Or Harry Potter and Voldemort? If Buffy and Faith start as friends and become enemies, then they're more like Magneto and Charles Xavier, or Captain America and Iron Man. Which is great! But it demands to establish their relationship first before they become enemies, so that their fight would be more interesting. And if Faith was supposed to be a Voldemort-like antagonist, then having her be Buffy's ally in the beginning of the season was a huge mistake - it takes away from her scariness and wastes time that could be spent on other things. If Faith was a Voldemort-like antagonist, then she should have been with the Mayor from 3x03.



    Um, when you say that "Faith wins the early rounds", you mean metaphorical rounds? As in, Faith convinces Buffy that she (Faith) is right?



    Faith brings out the worst in Buffy? I don't think so. I think there were many moments where they brought out the best in each other. In 3x03, for example, Faith was the one who was influenced by Buffy, and she was influenced in a positive way. And again, I do think they were friends. Not as close as they should have been, IMO, and it's clear that Faith wanted to be Buffy's friend more than Buffy wanted to be Faith's friend, but still. And really, Faith is a lot less honest with Buffy when she's evil - she's all posturing and ego contests then. Faith was a lot more honest when she wasn't evil.



    But it's a weak ending to the arc - what is it saying? Why did Buffy win? Why did Buffy NOT kill Faith? And what does it all have to do with the main message of the season? I don't see a message in that scene: does it say that Buffy didn't kill Faith because it's not in her nature? Because that's a pretty bleak message - it means that people who have messed up natures are just doomed, and people who don't have a messed up nature are inherently better. I don't like that, and I don't think it's true. Or is it saying that being shocked by murder is the difference between a hero and a villain? Because that doesn't make sense - Faith was ALSO shocked when she first killed a person, and that didn't stop her from spiraling into villainy. I just don't get what that scene is SAYING. What is it saying to you? What message do you take from the ending of 3x21?



    Oh, absolutely. I love Faith. But that scene still feels like a cop out - like the writers were going to end it with Buffy going dark and killing Faith, but chickened out because they didn't wanna lose Faith. And I don't want that scene to end with Faith's death! But I want a better ending to Faith's story in season 3. I want an ending that feels like the natural conclusion of the thematic arc of season 3, and that's not what I got there[/QUOTE]

    Because it was a much more intetesting way to have them start out on the same side and then slowly drift apart. Because of Faith's young age and bad experiences growing up, it was credible that she could have her heard turned. Think by showing what Faith could had been if she remained on the good team and by matching her up to Buffy it then made it more compelling when they faced each other later. If Faith just showed up as another enemy trying to take Buffy out it wouldn't have been anywhere near as engrossing. Buffy and Faith were at odds a lot of times too even when fighting on the same side lets not forget.
     
  9. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    That's quite tragic on Faith's part really. Buffy's had Xander and Willow, Faith has had no one. Faith finally meets a person like her and wants to be friends and Buffy's not interested but is just being polite.

    Here's that great moment again.


    Again I think this all plays into Faith's low self-esteem. She's looking to be accepted by someone for being herself and she's not getting that from the scoobies. The only one who really accepted her for being her was the mayor.
     
    Carrie Hopewell: It's an amazing moment. Buffy bringing misogyny to its knees ;)
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  10. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    Buffy lost Angel and was left with a monster. Giles had closure, Buffy didn't. Buffy's experience might be worse.

    I think Kristen Sutherland's performance is good, she's warm and kind, but the character isn't. Joyce is aloof, negligent, insensitive and just a bad parent. She improves during S3 (late S3 mostly) and is really nice in her last season (S5), but in 'Band Candy' Joyce rounds Buffy for crashing the car she let her drive, while saving the adults who reverted to teenagers and in Gingerbread she's just plain stupid. Oh, and in 'Amends' she wouldn't invite Giles for dinner during Christmas's Eve, like Buffy suggested, because Joyce had slept with him. However, she had no problems guilt tripping Buffy into inviting Faith for dinner, something Buffy wasn't very comfortable with.
    And I think during S3 Joyce didn't understand enough of the supernatural, of what it meant to be a slayer (which is why she was pressuring Buffy to be a normal teen so much) , she didn't have the big picture yet. I doubt she was able to fully get Buffy and Angel's relationship - their past, what they meant to each other, etc. I think it's wrong of Joyce to meddle like that. If Buffy is old enough to die saving the world, she should be old enough to handle a relationship, to let it end on her terms and not her mother's. I get that Buffy was acting like a teenager, but part of growing up is letting go of relationships. Angel had the right to end the relationship, because he was part of it, but Joyce shouldn't have intervened.
     
  11. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    I agree. Add to the fact that Buffy felt guilty that Angel turned into Angelus because of her, Angelus was basically walking round as her "dead" boyfriend doing dreadful things and he took what was a powerful moment in Buffy's life (losing her virginity) and turned it into something grubby and cheap. Giles got off relatively easy.

    I agree and disagree. Whilst I don't think Joyce should've told Angel to end it, at the same time Joyce was acting as a concerned parent. She knew Bangel wasn't going to end well and she probably wanted to nip it in the bud before it went too far.
     
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  12. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    I get that her intentions are good, but the right thing to do would have been to confront Buffy head on. She's a smart girl and 'Choices' proved that Buffy was very aware of the problems with her relationship. Going behind Buffy's back is a betrayal and it's treating Buffy as a child. If Joyce wants Buffy to be mature, she needs to let her do the right thing and learn from her mistakes. She needs to trust and respect Buffy. Buffy had already killed Angel once to save the world - something clueless Joyce didn't want Buffy to do - at a great personal cost. Like @Guy said, Buffy was more than capable of ending the relationship herself. I think Buffy just needed a nudge. Things had been going relatively well, Angel and Buffy felt like they need each other, so they both had been lulled into complacency. Giles proved that he was a better parent than Joyce during S3 by eventually accepting Angel, having Buffy's back with the Angel thing in GD and comforting Buffy in 'The Prom'. Giles tried to get Buffy to aim higher with college, while still respecting her. And honestly, even without Joyce's intervention or The Mayor's speech Bangel would have ended. Angel drinking from Buffy would have been the end, because Angel would have left immediately after that and Buffy wouldn't have tried to stop him.
     
    Mr Trick: Well Buffy is still very young at that point and at a crossroads in her life. The relationship with Angel was getting too intense. She needed someone like Joyce to step in IMO.
  13. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    I think Joyce did the right thing in that case. Its not just that Buffy and Angel's relationship was always going to end badly. But also that Buffy had her studies and future to focus on. I don't think its right to knock Joyce for being a bad parent or for not taking enough of interest in Buffy's life but then to knock her when she makes an important invention like this.

    Prety sure when she let her drive the car Joyce was uunder the inflence otherwise I doubt she would have let Buffy do it? Again its at least suggested that Joyce is under a spell of some kind which is infleucing her actions here. Why else would she place her daughter at risk? Think you are rearching a bit with that one. I don't think not wanting to invite someone out of embaressment is really a good example of bad parenting.
     
  14. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    Yes, she was under the spell and Buffy didn't know. She's punishing Buffy for using and crashing the car, but Buffy had permission and was driving the car around town to save the adults. It's hardly fair that Buffy is punished for saving Sunnydale again. Joyce and Giles rob a store and nothing happens, Buffy tries to save them and has to pay for the car with her allowance. It's not about safety, because Buffy would never drive the car without permission and Joyce knows it.

    It's an example of her being an hypocrite, like usual. Giles was going to spend Christmas alone, Buffy loves Giles, so she wanted him not to be alone. Joyce could have been a nice person and invited Giles, but instead she was petty. Buffy was guilt tripped into asking Faith for dinner, against her wishes initially, but Buffy couldn't ask Giles.
     
  15. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Agreed. Joyce is still coming to terms with Buffy being the slayer, she's probably still wary of Angel after seeing him as Angelus and she wants to protect Buffy. She was friendly with Spike in lovers walk because she didn't see him as a threat since he helped Buffy in Becoming part 2 and only vaguely recognised him from School Hard. He had to tell her she hit him with an axe. Joyce's reaction to Spike was more positive than her reaction to Angel who she thought was still evil in LW.

    Was that before or after "Earshot"? Was Joyce aware of why Buffy was reluctant about inviting Faith?
     
    Mr Trick: Its before Earshot. That's why Buffy is a little suprised or not sure why Joyce wouldn't want to invite Giles. Joyce doesn't know why Buffy doesn't want Faith there no.
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  16. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    To be honest I don't even remember Joyce telling Buffy off for crashing the car. When are you talking about early in the episode before the parents are all drugged or at the end? Either way I'm not sure what point your making. Joyce let Buffy have the car to drive not crash;)

    Firstly I doubt Giles would have wanted to go for the same reasons as Joyce doesn't want him there. Second, yeah your right Joyce is being a hypocrite but its not like she doesn't have a good reason for what she's doing. Chances are if Buffy knew the truth at that point then she wouldn't want her Mum and Giles spending time together either. Besides what actual harm does that do? Giles isn't hurt because he never knew that their was the prospect of spending Christmas with the Summers. Buffy maybe a bit let down but not much else and its hardly something which is going to shatter her. And more importantly its not something which has any lasting effect. Therefore, yes it would have been nice of Joyce to have invited Giles. But nothing major goes wrong as a result of her not inviting him. Its not an example of bad parenting for those reasons.
     
  17. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    That's not an excuse. You don't get to decide when to interfere with someone's life. She's not a child. If she's old enough to die and save the world every day she's allowed to choose how her relationship ends. A good parent would sit down and talk to Buffy about her fears. Buffy would think about it and make a choice. That's her right. Joyce is a bad parent, she didn't know her child spent her nights out almost every day, didn't think to ask about the older men she saw Buffy with in 'Angel' and is surprised to know Buffy was dating him. And then she decides to start giving a damn, by interfering with Buffy's life and telling Angel to make the right choice, without trusting Buffy to do the same. All of this is bad parenting, instead of being supportive and helpful, she goes from being oblivious to deciding she knows what Buffy wants. Going to college and ending a relationship are Buffy's decisions. If Buffy chooses wrong, that's life. And anyone who knows Buffy, knows she's capable of choosing right.
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 10, 2016 ---
    At the end of 'Band Candy', after the whole ordeal. Joyce let Buffy drive the car and Buffy drove the car with her permission. The car wasn't Buffy's fault, a reckless driver (affected by the spell I think) hit her. She's punishing Buffy for being hit by a car, but most of all, she's punishing Buffy for driving it. She drove the car to save everyone's lives, including those sacrificial babies. Buffy spends an entire episode being responsible, Joyce spends an episode robbing a store, having sex with Giles and being a brat. Yet Buffy is punished for an accident that happened on duty, probably because her mother can't cope with what happened. Buffy's mom is an idiot.
     
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  18. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    But the reason is because Joyce needed to make a judgement call. Either she goes to Buffy about it and risks Buffy going off the deep end or she reasons with Angel who lets face it was in a better position to see sense. And without a doubt she made the right call for me. Buffy was still very young at that point. Lets face it people much older than her struggle to make the right choices when it comes to these things, so its no surprise than Buffy isn't ready.
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 10, 2016 ---
    Okay so like I said first of all, Joyce was drugged when she let Buffy drive the car. I don't think Joyce knows the full story behind Buffy's actions at that point. I think the spell on her had only just been lifted. Besides Buffy could have been killed is what Joyce as a parent was thinking. So yes, she acted harshly but it came out of a place for love.
     
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  19. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    In what way would Buffy had gone the deep end? Would she have eloped or something? Buffy would have either spoken to Angel about it and/or break up with him or she would have done nothing. Buffy's mom telling her something she doesn't want her to hear is an old habit, nothing bad would have happened. Teenagers have relationships, they end in heartbreak, adults have relationships, they end in heartbreak. Doesn't mean that you need your parents to talk to your partners about it. She's not to young to die or to join the army or to drive, but she's to young to understand why a relationship has to end? In 'The Prom' Buffy isn't unreasonable. She reacts badly in the beginning, and doesn't go off the deep end at all, and later tells Willow and Angel that she understands.
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 10, 2016 ---
    Punishing Buffy without the full story, excellent parenting.

    She's a slayer. A car came out of nowhere and hit Joyce's car. Accidents happen, you don't punish the victim.

    A place of love? You can say that about nearly everything. Most bad parents love their children, ask the children how much that helps. Joyce clearly loves Buffy but is an incompetent mother for most of the first three seasons.
     
    Mr Trick: Not arguging with you over this Joyce thing anymore. Seems you are letting your bias towards the character cloud your judgement and just picking on every little thing.
    Ethan Reigns likes this.
  20. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    But most teenagers are not under the sort of extreme pressure that Buffy was under with her Slaying duties. Then when you add her studies then that is a lot to deal with. And lets face it Angel could see where Joyce was coming from and clearly agreed with her. Don't you think if he and Buffy had still decided to stay together than Joyce would have respected that?