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The true flowering of Spuffy in S6

Discussion in 'Season 6' started by Anyanka Bunny Killer, Mar 18, 2017.

  1. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Well then we get back into the age long debate of author intent vs audience perception. The writers never intended Spuffy in season 2, ergo Spike and Buffy's interactions aren't supposed to be interpreted as a precursor to the relationship that later happened. However, retroactively as the result of the later relationship, audiences will then view season 2 and Spuffy's interactions as the precursor to the relationship, despite that not being the original intent at all.
     
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  2. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Perception makes reality. I didn't realize this thread was about when did the writers first write a scene for a Buffy and Spike romance, I thought it was about when you "believe" Spuffy started. As was the original question. So again, I believe Spuffy started in S2. Without question.
     
  3. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    I believe it didn't start until much later because in season 2 a Spuffy romance wasn't even on the horizon. Did Sarah and James have chemistry? Yes. Did people kind of ship the characters together because of that chemistry? Yes. But was season 2 the beginning of Spuffy (as in setting them on the road to romance)? No. That didn't happen until season 4 when Spike stuck around as a regular.

    You can believe whatever you want to believe, that's your choice, to each their own. However, I fail to see how season 2 can officially be the start of Spuffy when Spuffy wasn't even a thing ye for the writers. Fanon wise, people would've been shipping them as they would ship any other character with someone. However, canon wise, Spuffy didn't appear on the radar until about season 4.
     
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  4. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Yet canon wise you saw later seasons completely alter and change previous seasons. The canon of the show was totally screwed up and they changed it as they saw fit.

    And if "You can believe whatever you want to believe, that's your choice," then why are you still arguing with me? You keep trying to get me to change my opinion and I keep stating why and how I have that opinion and you keep arguing that you disagree it's not what the writers wanted.

    "I fail to see how season 2 can officially be the start of Spuffy" Clearly you do as I have pointed it out a few times how it could be viewed that way. I have made valid points, referenced scenes shown on the show that reinforced my point, and stated how their 'relationship' grew. The only thing you can counter with is 'it wasn't a thing for the writers' or 'he wasn't a regular'

    I don't really care what the writers' intention was; it is how the show is perceived as a whole that I am more interested in. If I wanted to know the writers' intent I would read a book. The OP asked when did you feel it started. I answered that.
     
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  5. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    I am merely stating my point and what I think, just the same as you are.

    It's clear we're going to have to agree to disagree. You feel it started in season 2, I disagree. I think it started about season 4 (despite the fact I wish it had never happened at all).
     
  6. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    The canon is still the same. The early Seasons happened as they did and what was done/said/written there is pretty much set in stone. Anything that gets added later or changed and which directly contradicts earlier canon, is a retcon by definition. Those are best to be ignored. And it doesn't just happen with S2 or 3 being retconned. Even S4 gets that pleasure (plenty Initiative retcons in S7).

    And as for Spuffy in S2. I've said it before but Spike and Buffy were intend on killing each other (and only foiled by idiotic writers) and removing the other from the mortal realm permanently. You don't want to remove someone permanently that you have some kind of feelings for. Whether that's lust, infatuation, obsession, love or whatever. You definitely want to keep that person around. Which Spike and Buffy didn't want.
     
  7. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    It's a common trope though, bitter enemies become lovers. There is always something that connects them, even when enemies and wanting to kill one another. You just have to look back and see and connect pieces how it started. Same with Spuffy. For me it started in season 2 with Spike's infatuation of her.
     
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  8. Dora

    Dora Potential

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    People who see romance in trying to kill someone, physically assaults them, obsessed by them,Knicker nicking ,Making a sex doll of them, Staking them,Taunting them Sexually abusing them, and trying to rape them, then bragged about it ( not the attemped rape of course ). are just sick. James Marsters says himself no man should treat a woman that way . I can't believe these Spuffy girls look for someone like that in real life ? or if theirs friends was with someone who treated them badly they would just stand by and do or say nothing,I believe they are not real Buffy fans but just Spike fans forgiving him for anything . James Masters has said no matter how bad they made Spike bad they just forgave him. No as far as I am concerned Spike in the last two seasons ruined Buffy. The show was about Woman being feminist, being strong, JW himself said it was about a little blond girl going into a ally and coming out on top , we saw our hero in the last season fawning over her would be rapist and the rapist and murderer of many young girls. The show was best when it was about the core four working out their problems, before it became a soap opera , before James masters started taking his shirt off, before it came about some yob in a leather jacket
     
  9. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    So when was it that you thought Spuffy started again? S6 or earlier?
     
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  10. Antho

    Antho Scooby

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    In my opinion Spuffy, the lovingly speaking relationship, begins in season 5 when Spike realizes his feelings for Buffy and he tells her. However, SMG and JM have always had a good chemistry since Season 2. I have always felt a special bond between them and this is what gave life to Spuffy. Personally, I ship Bangel but I'm not a Spuffy hater, they don't deserve so much hate. However I admit that I have participated in a lot of French debate and there is a particular Spuffy argument that I never understood and that's the "he did this without soul" .
    You see when Spike does something right, people think he has merit because "he did this without soul" but when he does something wrong he is forgivable because "he did this without soul" ! I don't understand this logic...
    It's too easy for me to think like that
     
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  11. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    I think Spike sums up Buffy well, especially when it comes to Spuffy: "Got to hand it to you, Goldilocks - you do have bleeding tragic taste in men. I've got a cousin married to a regurgitating Frovalox demon that's got better instincts than you. " :p
     
  12. Dora

    Dora Potential

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    I believe Spike got obsessed with the Slayer's line long before Buffy started , he heard of a Slayer being in Sunnydale and came to kill her , a Slayer not Buffy he had killed two already.....He's feeling changed when he got the Chip he could not kill her but he's obsession with slayers carried on but changed from killing her to wanting sex we her , he started Stalking her. Showing Buffy where Riley was was a good ploy Knowing Buffy would hate it , and could lead to Riley being out of the seen . I am not a Bangel shipper I find that sort of paedophilia a man of about 28 human years and 240 vampire years after a 15 year old girl..... creepy
    Dont get me wrong I enjoyed Spike character up until the Stalking and although I think JM crows about himself to much and there has done and said things he should not have done Sarah and JM seemed to have had a good friendship , it appears that they both disliked JW pervie sex and attempted rape in season six . I don,t think there ever was a Spuffy. Spike was a evil vampire with a muzzle (a pit ball with a muzzle is still a pit ball) who no longer could kill ,and Buffy came back in Season six as Spike put it Wrong. I can't get my head around what Spuffy people see as love in season six. We have Buffy , finding her Mum dead, already having a mental brake down in season five, then having to sacrifice herself to save Dawn, being finished being in heaven, her so called friends dragging her out ( expelled from heaven ) having to dig herself out of her grave and fight demons straight away ...no wonder she was a head case....She confided in Spike because the Scoobies had moved on with their lives and she felt she could not talk too them, Buffy can't move on with her life she is the Slayer.Once Spike found out he could hit Buffy he taunted ( you came back wrong etc ) her and hit her leading to the first S&M sex , basically after that Spike became Buffy self harming, He was able to easily manipulate sex with Buffy, we see two occasions when Buffy went to him When Buffy was in a very low place. Spike knew that Buffy was mentally ill that she had come back needing help so instead of helping her he took advantage of her he got what he wanted his third Slayer. Saying that you love someone dosent mean you actually do , loving someone means you care a great deal about them Spike didn't he care about the Mental turmoil Buffy was going though only about himself getting his jolly's off.....but then why not he was a evil vampire
    . Funny though as Spike instigated the break up between Riley and Buffy it was Rileys talk with Buffy that instigated Buffy to to become mentally strong enough to Stop Spikes abuse .
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 28, 2017 ---
    Then he try's to kill Buffy.....can't you can just feel that Spuffy love
     
  13. Alara

    Alara Townie

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    I think they are talking chemistry wise it was always there not character wise. They play off each other well because they are kind of the yin and yang of each other. Fire and ice...light and dark. Bangel tries to be that in s1-3 but Angel is too good that its sickening sometimes as I rewatch now.
     
  14. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    That's obviously what the whole Spike/Buffy thing was going for but I doesn't really work; they have no connection because a slayer is a slayer and a vampire is a vampire. They aren't the same or similar or mirror images.
    Ying and yang, light and dark, fire and ice is Buffy and Faith in S3 and beyond, foreshadowing and all. :)
     
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  15. Puppet

    Puppet Hands in the hair!

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    Black Thorn
    Now, I can't speak for the others, but for me; when I say Spuffy started in S2, I don't mean the love part, just that they had obvious chemistry right from the beginning. Yes, they hated each other, yes, they wanted to kill each other, but there was, imo, a definite attraction from School Hard and onwards, whether it was intended by the writers/actors or not. But then that's just how I see it :)
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 3, 2017 ---
    I feel slightly uncomfortable with the way you're speaking for us Spuffy fans, so I'll just state my own opinion; I am NOT blind to Spike's flaws, of which there are many. In all honesty, I am not a Spuffy fan solely for the canon 'relationship', that's why I enjoy fanfics, because you can twist it to be something very different.

    I would and could NEVER condone such a relationship IRL, don't think that for a SECOND. I am not charmed by Spike's 'wooing' of Buffy, mostly I'm taken aback by it or it leaves me shaking my head, wondering what the hell my favorite character is thinking. I will never truly forgive him for the AR, though I see it differently than some fans do. Please don't assume that, just because someone ships Spuffy, that they have blinders on. At least in my case, that is not true.
     
    Fool for Buffy: Great post! Totally with you!
  16. GraceK

    GraceK Grr Arrg

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    I completely agree with this. You can feel the chemistry radiating from James in School Hard when he's watching her dance. Of course, James could have chemistry with pretty much a doorknob if he chose to :)
     
    flow: I want to be a doorknob.....
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  17. Puppet

    Puppet Hands in the hair!

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    Black Thorn
    Omg, so true. I can literally not think of a single person that JM didn't have on-screen chemistry with as Spike. Even when he joined AtS, he connected really well with characters that had been around for awhile. (I lurve Spike/Fred friendship, just adorbs!)
     
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  18. GraceK

    GraceK Grr Arrg

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    My favorite is Spike and Angel in season 5. Omg how hilarious are those 2 together? I just love how petty Angel gets when Spikes around :p
     
    Puppet: "You're a wee little puppet man!" Three guesses as to where I got my profile name from, but you'll only need one ;)
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  19. TriBel

    TriBel Potential

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    I think the attraction started earlier. For Spike, it's a bolt out of the blue and he has problems articulating it because it's so different from anything he's experienced before. In much of Season 5 he's using the discourse of courtly love. The problem with Courtly Love is it is an idealisation of the woman - it turns her into a Thing (the Buffy-bot? She's not a sex toy - she's his idealised Girl-Friend). At the beginning of 6, there's still the residue of this (the Promise) in his caring for Dawn but I think it's turned into something genuine. I'd like someone - seriously - to tell me how to read his actions in the first few episodes as negative and indicative of a monster. Yes - his gaze is a masculine gaze but it's not a controlling gaze. It's gone from voyeurism to fetishism. He adores her (which is - in itself a problem but still a step in the right direction).

    Hands are a sign of humanity. He sets out to heal them before he's interrupted by the Scoobies. I was just looking at Serial Life. He doesn't encourage her into the dark. He says - “You’re a creature of the darkness. Like me” Spike does not live in complete darkness - he lives in the shadow - we've already seen this. (That aside, she's already described the light as hellish in After Life). He doesn't say "come into my world" - he says “Try on my world” (ie - put it on and take it off). His world is framed as an alternative source of knowledge - one based on experiencing something rather than abstract knowledge of books. Buffy is not a dialectical thinker – this is made clear when she can't follow the lesson. Being a Slayer permits no deviation from Black/White - this is the conflict she has over Spike. It's what she means in Touched when she says "Being a Slayer made me different". (IMO)

    Do I think it began earlier? It's framed as sexual attraction from S2 (JM said it was on purpose - I tend to disregard much of what he says but there's a certain logic in it). I don't think Whedon had a clear idea of the direction it was going then. You can see the impact of writers like Espenson in the later episodes. If I'm honest, I'd want to paraphrase Wesley - by the time you get to S6/7 it's easy to say "he loved her before he met her" but I don't know it this was consciously structured into the text from the beginning.
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 4, 2017 ---
    I think the best thing to come of A5 was Spike/Fred. I'm conflicted - she and Wes probably belong together but if it wasn't for that - Spike/Fred (and Illyria) suits me down to the ground!
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 4, 2017 ---
    Hmm...Okay but (IMO) "perception" in S7 (and possibly 6) is moving away from humanist/Cartesian ideas of perception towards the phenomenology associated with Merleau-Ponty (and no - I haven't read him all - only his last thin book!). Because of this, and because it also - quite overtly - introduces the unconscious and the idea that language is inherently inadequate (and also constructs reality), any subsequent viewing will change potential meanings (unless that's just me who's an incredibly wishy-washy viewer)?
     
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  20. TriBel

    TriBel Potential

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    Since when has character been fixed? A successful character develops. The flaws you identify in Spike are not necessarily inherent. Once you get to the root cause of the behaviour - once a character starts to understand why he/she behaves in this way, behaviour can change. If it didn't, real life people wouldn't undergo therapy. Address the cause - not the symptom. Spike WASN'T a leading man in the traditional mode - I think that was the point. He edges towards the postmodern "hero" - who tends to be more of an anti-hero. Again - I think that was the point - that's why he's aligned with Punk Rock
     
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