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Spoiler! Thoughts on Season 9 and hopes for Season 10

Discussion in 'Season 9' started by The Bronze, Mar 11, 2014.

  1. The Bronze

    The Bronze Rogue Demon Hunter

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    Black Thorn
    I've just finished Season 9 and Angel and Faith so for a few days at least I'm up to speed with the verse :). So first thing to say is there's a strong possibility of spoilers in this thread!

    I think it's important to say first that I have enjoyed the comics. I'm not a huge comic fan and they can't live up to the TV series but I'm glad the verse is still going and I'd much rather have the comics than nothing at all. I've liked delving deeper into the verse through the comics. We've seen old ones, different dimensions and learnt about the origins of magic. I think when I get round to doing a re-read there'll be plenty more things that will sink in as well.

    I found Angel and Faith to be a stronger series than Buffy Season 9. Neither Angel or Faith are favourites of mine but it just seemed much tighter and more focused. I think the focus on Giles helped a lot as well. We got to learn more about his background and it gave us a clear mission. I think the dialogue also seemed sharper to me.

    I think Season 9 rather bottled the opportunity it was given by the destruction of the seed at the end of Season 8. The premise was there to explore a world without magic but it ended up being a race to get it back as quickly as possible. It actually felt like there was more magic for the most part.

    The highlight of Season 9 was probably just seeing some of the conversation between Buffy and Xander towards the end of the Season. They were arguing and it wasn't all nice but at least we had some proper Scooby interaction.

    So looking forward to Season 10 I'm hoping for a few things. Mostly I just want to see Buffy, Giles, Willow and Xander interacting. It's pretty simple stuff but they've always been the heart of the verse and with them separated for years now it's seemed very strained.

    Something has just struck me today about what has been missing from the verse for a long time and that I'm hoping someone will be able to introduce into the comics - fun and interests! The Scoobies don't have any fun anymore. They don't have outside interests or ambitions. This is going to be really hard to fit in the comics with limited space but I think it's been missing from the verse for far to long. As Whistler would say the balance is off. One of the best things from the early Seasons is that they all have things going on outside of saving the world. I can't even remember the last time one of the gang even attempted to have any fun. No point saving the world all the time if you're not going to at least try to enjoy it.

    So mostly for everyone who is up to date and the brave few who don't mind spoilers. What are you thoughts so far and what do you hope for moving forward?
     
  2. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    I also think that the comics are a (mostly positve) mixed bag- not perfect by its nice to see the Buffyverse continuing. That's why I read fanfic after all.

    Hopes for the comics-

    Scooby interactions: Much more of this, we had some good stuff in S8 and a little towards the end of S9. I want to see them all reacted to the return of Giles. :)

    Buffy/Faith- some postive interactions/rebuilding of friendship would be nice, nothing to big, just something to keep us Fuffy's happy! :D

    Buffy/Angel- Just one conversation would be nice, doesn't have to be anything romantic.

    Spike's purpose- Give him something! Have him interact with other characters. Build frieindships, fall in love again, do something interesting! :(

    The Fang Gang- More Gunn, Conner and Illyria please. Have them interact with the Scoobies or Angel, but have them around. You own the characters, use them! Give us things we haven't seen before.

    Also A&F was strong because of tight plotting and call backs to series: Morah demon, Drusilla, Giles and his past, Eighon, Whistler. Keep this. Give the sense that the shows and comics are more tightly wound together.
    You wanna have giant-Dawn, fine, but have the return of old enemies, allies, demons, dimesions, whatever it takes. Don't forget where the comics come from, and you'll do a better job of keeping what fans loved about ithe Buffyverse alive. :)

    ---------- Post added at 09:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 AM ----------

    Yeah, I also want to see the Scoobies relaxing a bit. More sharp Whedonesque dialogue (surely its not that hard...), humour, changing relationships.

    I for one am actually interested in where the whole Dawn/Xander relationship is going.

    Give Buffy a new romance, someone positive for her to fall in like with, go on dates with.

    Same for Faith.

    Same goes for Willow, actually. Maybe give her a new love interest, I think now is the time she would begin to get over a true love like Tara, a couple of years after the event. (not months... *grumble*)

    Maybe kill off some extraneous characters who aren't popular/don't seem to be going anywhere (Drusilla, Andrew, Billy...)

    And flesh out new characters a lot better (Kohn, Kennedy, Buffy's slayer roommate, the detective love-interest). Look to A&F as to how to do this. (since I really like Giles' Aunts and Nadia the damaged slayer)
     
  3. The Bronze

    The Bronze Rogue Demon Hunter

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    Black Thorn
    I think Spike needs a major arc or a long rest. I don't think his floating about is a good thing so far. There's actually a lot of potential for his character in the verse at the moment but it doesn't seem to be being picked up on. He's a unique character. He's a vampire with a soul but no curse holding him back. The world is aware of vampires now and even embraces them. He has the option to carve out a normal life away from the fight like Oz if he wanted to. We've also seen that Spike can be a great champion and wants to do the right thing. So he could potentially get his own mission, something to sink his fangs into. I just hope the writers can commit to his story. Have him genuinely interested in something.

    I'm not so sure about Faith and Buffy though. I just don't see any need for them to be friends. They had the start of a friendship in Season 3 but they weren't close. It was always full of ups and downs. After everything Faith has put Buffy through I just don't see why Buffy would want to be friends regardless of how much Faith might have changed. Also I'm not sure Faith is desperate to have Buffy as a friend either. Seems it would just be forced to me.

    Buffy and Angel. There'll be a conversation eventually. They won't be kept apart forever. I just don't see how it can go well. Angel pulled on the Twilight mask and decided mass murder was cool because Whistler said it would save the world. Pretty flimsy stuff and I'm not sure Buffy will be able to treat him the same these days.

    As for the various other characters I'd like them to select a small core and really focus on them. Think there's been a few too many faces and not enough detail. We need to get to know everyone a bit better. I'd love to see more of Connor. His humour and attitude have been a standout feature in the comics for me.
     
  4. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Agreed about Spike, the guy became a genuine hero in Season 5 of Angel (before that, not so much in my opinion...). He needs some direction or a rest (unlikely, he's far too popular- unless it was another mini-series) so he can grow and shine. So far he hasn't in the comics.

    Buffy and Faith grew closer at the end of S8, I think its safe to say she's not as wary of Faith as she once was (Buffy has forgiven others for worse- Willow for instance.). And I think after helping to bring Giles back Faith has earned a second shot.

    Is it important to Faith? Well, I think her redemption is bigger than just Buffy- she killed people and hurt Buffy's friends, she knows this. But I think that Faith has such a complete lack of friends/loved ones in her life (apart from Angel) that she needs somebody. And I think they could be good friends. :)
    Their personalities mirror each other in so many ways and they've been through similar dark journey's. (See how closely some of Buffy's characteristics come to mirror Faith's, especially in the later seasons). I'd like to see them have some sort of conversation about that.
    Focus on the core group is fine, but if thet choose to introduce new characters, which they have, they should know what to do with them and have an idea where the'rel heading- or just get rid of them if they don't add anything.

    And, while I agree about the whole Buffy/Angel relationship not being focussed on, I'd like to see some signs of movement- even slow ones.

    Yes to more Conner, Gunn et all, the Angel cast has been criminally neglected these past few years (but they got a nice arc in A&F...such a good series), more appearance would be nice. And yes, I like Conner a lot more in the comics.
     
  5. Xin Rong

    Xin Rong Killed by Dissertation

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    Repeat the awesomeness of Angel and Faith, and extend it to Buffy, and I'll be happy.

    Kill Billy, he's boring a pointless pandering to stupidity: he's so not a slayer, and even using his name in conjunction with that title is beyond reproach, at least IMO.

    At best he's a rogue demon hunter :)
     
    thetopher: Completely agree about Billy, it is pandering.
  6. The Bronze

    The Bronze Rogue Demon Hunter

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    Black Thorn
    Yeah I get the feeling I'm missing something with Billy. He's not a vampire slayer at all. Not sure why he gets labelled like that. He should be - Billy "a bit like Gunn"
     
    Xin Rong: Brilliant!
  7. Black Eye Guy

    Black Eye Guy Taking over the World!

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    Black Thorn
    Yeah I also enjoy the comics, one of the things I noticed when I reread season 8 back to back was that I enjoyed it much more. Reading something so small month by month is hard going for those of us not used to reading comics, and even while not a complete newbie to comics I struggle with this.

    I find the comics harder to discuss in the same way we do the show, becasue once we analyse it as hard as we do the tv series, it often falls apart, arcs like the abortion story are terrible, the foundation just isn't as strong.

    I agree Billy needs to be a dead Billy asap, awful character.

    Spike needs a long rest. I agree he needs a story, his floundering about is just sad to watch, but I dont think the writers will do something with him, too afraid to piss off his fans. And while I'd prefer if he was given a story, I dont want to see it. Spike doesn't need to get any more ink time taken away from the real scoobies, so any large story he is given should be on his own book, or move him back over the Angel where is was a much stronger character anyway and were there are only two main characters.

    I also agree Angel and Faith was a much stronger book overall, I looked forward more to A&F then I did BtVS.
     
  8. Lyri

    Lyri Buckle Up Tight

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    Sineya
    The whole verse needs a radical overhaul - the same one we were promised in S9 that we didn't get.

    S9 was a disaster. The first half of the season was disjointed and uncoordinated. Which, yes, helped with Buffy's state of mind at that time, but it wasn't actually supposed to be like that.

    The pregnancy/abortion/robot storyline was the worst thing I have ever read. I hated every single second of it.

    I hated Willow. Her drive to get her powers back was selfish. She couldn't handle being 'weak' and 'powerless'. I hated the fact that everything that her character is was reduced to how much power she had. Willow more more than useful when she had no power, I wanted THAT Willow back, or at least for Willow to understand that having more power than everyone doesn't actually mean she's more powerful than everyone.

    Dawn needs an actual storyline, not tailgating everyone else's. I actually want them to continue with the friendship she and Spike had at the end of the season. I liked that, and I think it would be good for both of them and would give Spike a storyline away from Buffy. Spike is actually a good and interesting character when he's not pining after Buffy. I liked him in AtS S5 and I want that guy back. Putting him with Dawn mind help that. Not so sure about the Xander thing, though.

    Buffy needs to find her place in the world. She's the Slayer, she's THE SLAYER, and I think she needs to stop trying to be everybody's leader and start just...being herself.

    I want a new everything.
     
    Mylie and thetopher like this.
  9. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Those few words pretty much sum up the whole problem, and, in defense of the writers, it was actually supposed to be that way, and that's what they portrayed.

    Unfortunately, they far beyond disaster, past chaos, even beyond apocalyptic.

    Season 9 was Ragnarok.
     
  10. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    I disagree, half of S9 was a disaster. The Buffy half. Most of it sucked. The robot/abortion thing, the bodyguard thing, Billy :)confused:), zompires...just so much suck.

    But A&F was fantastic, the comic series Buffy needs to have.

    I also didn't completely hate the ending of Buffy. (The Core?) and hopefully that will be dealt with in S10.
     
  11. The Bronze

    The Bronze Rogue Demon Hunter

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    Black Thorn
    Have to agree with this. It made no sense at all. There's just no way Andrew can make a robot Buffy with perfect accuracy. That kind of silliness just drags the comics down. I felt the same about the giant Dawn arc of Season 8. Especially fighting the mecha Dawn. Just daft. It all needs to be reigned in and more focused.
     
  12. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    At least with S8 you can blame it on teething problems, learning what works for the characters in a new medium. Too wacky, but I can deal.

    S9 Buffy was too lazy, bitty and unfocused. I guess the theme was supposed to be 'lack of direction', but like S6's 'life is the big bad' it just didn't work in theory. I was mostly bored, at least until the journey into the deeper well to save Dawn, a nice callback to a neat idea in Angel S5.
    (Although I'm really angry that they screwed up introducing Illyria in Buffy, I was really looking forward to it and...it was just so overwhelming. Then they decide to kill her off? I hope they haven't, she had a lot of potential)

    The whole abortion thing...I just wanted Andrew to die, right there and then. It was such a huge violation of Buffy as a person, to have her go through months of this because of some nebulous threat (Simone is not that dangerous imo). I would've been quite happy if somebody (Spike?) had killed him for such a treacherous thing, no matter what his motives. :mad:
     
  13. Kean

    Kean Professional Bangel

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    Sineya
    Whedon should stay a million miles away from issues that impact women in particular i.e. rape and abortion. He can call himself a feminist, and really mean to do good, but twice he has tackled MASSIVELY important and topical issues that have real world impact and got them so spectacularly wrong that he actually came out looking like a misogynist.
     
  14. ladydorotea

    ladydorotea Scooby

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    To extreme detriment of the 'abortion' plot , it was never about Buffy per se, or 'women issues'. It was all about Spike, again, same way the 'attempted rape' story of S6 was all about Spike and Buffy's suffering was (mainly) used as a plot device to advance his story. This time Whedon made fun of his own 'sexbot' plot of S5 with an additional twist of 'the dude confesses his feels to a robot while thinking it is the girl' vs in the past it was 'the dude gets a kiss form the girl while thinking it is her robot he built to shag'. While I appreciate the irony and the knife twisted in the Spuffy's back (again), I cannot but get a gag reflex at the way Buffy it treated as a 'thing' - again. And they added insult to the injury by advertising 'her body is the battlefield' line all over the comics. I never suffered from feminist idea taken to the extreme, and I believe I do have a sense of humour, but, well there was (hypothetical) drunken sex without consent , followed by a body highjack, followed by "maybe I should give birth to the rape baby and 'run away' with the dude whom I don't love but who will provide for my unplanned baby and poor little house-wife me , and yes, he might even be the father but I don't really care to ask him if he shagged me while I was drunk and unconscious, but I still consider him as a possible daddy-substitute... " And while all of that was going on our 'hyper-feminist' fandom was all over the moon, while being made fun of by Mr. Whedon. Yes, I get it that Joss was writing a parody on ultra-right fantasy 'romance' novel , but I think many folks took it quite seriously... Sigh.
     
    thetopher likes this.
  15. The Bronze

    The Bronze Rogue Demon Hunter

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    Black Thorn
    I don't really agree with this. These are issues that effect everyone in one way or another. I think Joss has every right to include them in his stories. As I've said earlier I thought the quality of the robot/abortion story was rather poor but I don't think that means the issue should be banned from future stories. Also it's not like the show or comics are written exclusively by Joss.
     
  16. Kean

    Kean Professional Bangel

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    Sineya
    And with that right comes the responsibility to address important and sensitive issues with respect and dignity. In both the cases I mentioned, that was not done. Buffy, feminist icon and central character to this entire verse, was used as a tool to further a male character's development, and in the case of the abortion storyline, the story creator's own agenda. And while all the stories are not written exclusively by Joss,they all have to get his approval. Every episode that aired or every comic that is printed is done so with his name on it, indicating his endorsement of the messages contained within them.
     
  17. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    I agree about the rape plot, it was all about Spike and his motivations, not about Buffy's trauma. And when Spike comes back with a soul, its all about how much their relationship hurt him, not her. The nerve. :mad:

    The abortion plot...was a little more complicated, it wasn't all about Spike. There was an element about Buffy trying to find out what she wanted in her life from this revelation, (part of her whole season arc I guess) and I do think here we have the true death of Spuffy as a pairing, so there is that. :)
    But still, it was all treated in such a cavalier manner it made me mad, especially when people were wittering on about how 'brave' it was. When actually it a jaw-dropping cop-out.
     
  18. The Bronze

    The Bronze Rogue Demon Hunter

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    Black Thorn
    Being the central character in the verse means that Buffy is used to further the development of pretty much every other character in the verse, male or female. It also goes without saying that she is used by the story creator to tell a story.

    I think it's important to remember that although Buffy may be a feminist icon she is a character / person first. If the writer's spend their whole time concerned with the most appropriate feminist reaction Buffy should have to any given situation they'll almost certainly forget about her actual character.

    It's also worth remembering that the Buffyverse is not the same as the real world and it's not portrayed as such. It's very close for the most part but given the amount of supernatural activity the character's react differently than people in real would to similar situations.
     
  19. Kean

    Kean Professional Bangel

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    Sineya
    Sure, simply by being included in her story is going to result in character's development being related to her life but every character in Buffy has also developed through their own stories. But the point being made is that she was used as a tool, a thing. The rape storyline had no investment in her character. She was fridged. That's a huge problem in a show that set itself up to be progressive and challenge the way women are regarded in fiction.

    The feminist comment wasn't about the reaction Buffy, the character, should have, it was about the manner in which the writers and producers chose to use Buffy in these storylines. It is about her and her story being respected in a way befitting of her place.

    Except that in both these instances the issues at hand were real world issues that effect the men and women watching and reading the show. The rape storyline is appalling because it actually supported rape culture. Any story in this day and age that deals with rape should be about tearing down rape culture. The abortion storyline is appalling because Whedon literally used a very real and sensitive issue to grand stand about his own politics. Buffy was never even pregnant, that tells us in the most plain way possible that it was never about Buffy or the issue, it was just about Joss Whedon being about to say he was pro-choice. That's BS storytelling.
     
  20. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    True, but I think the point remains that these were very personal issues about Buffy, to do with her character, as a woman. They both involved physical, bodily violations and should, therefore, be used consideratedly. A lot of people think that they were used pretty thoughtlessly, not as some way of stuirring up fake controversy.

    I especially think that the attempted rape was done completely wrong, because it was never about Buffy, it was about Spike- even the writers have stated this. The fact that Buffy took very little time to get over it, and that Spike is never really called to account for this is really, very irritating even if you don't happen to be a feminist. :(