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Unpopular Opinion Angel and Cordy

Discussion in 'Season 3' started by GraceK, Nov 3, 2016.

  1. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    I agree completely.
    Angel being a bad love interest doesn't bother me as much as him being a bad father though. And Cordelia's devotion to Angel in S3 is beyond ridiculous. Imo, Angel definitely didn't love Cordy. He's capable of selfless, unconditional love (Buffy) and that's not what he showed Cordelia. She was his ticket to having a happy family, something he thought he could have for the first time in his life during S3. You can see that he doesn't care much for Cordy romantically when Connor's out of the picture (after he gets abducted in S3 and in S5). In S4, after Deep Down and all of those hallucinations of having a perfect family and meeting Cordy in Tomorrow, Angel obstinately clings to what's gone (to paraphrase Illyria) and ends up being a bad father and potential boyfriend in the process. Thankfully, he still checks up on Connor and tells him that he loves him from time to time. I can justify/understand Angel quite well in regards to Connor: Angel naturally doesn't know how to be parent to a teenager, as he's had no time to grow into it, he spent a lot of time underwater which messed with his head, and he's a dysfunctional person at the core which is why he should never have had kids. I think being Angelus revealed to him what he had decided to ignore. All of the A.I team indulges in some major denial, which is how everyone's lives end up so screwed up. Angel does see reason in the end, particularly in Home. And in S5, he is a good father, meaning, he stays away from his kid. And yes, Angel not caring about adult Cordelia sleeping with his teenage son who knows nothing about the world is awful. And if Lorne knew about the sex thing, why didn't he tell Angel how shitty he was being as a father?

    S5 is terrible for Cordy, because the writers were desperately trying to ignore her, which made everyone seem uncaring. Angel in Chosen probably thought that W&H would be able to help Cordy and that Willow was busy with an apocalypse which is why he didn't ask for help. And you can conjecture that Angel tried to contact Willow in S5 but couldn't reach her. Cordelia didn't keep in touch with Xander or Buffy, so she probably wouldn't want them to know what had happened to her.
    As for the Spuffy jealousy, Spike brings out the worst in him, that's why I hate them together. And it was a distraction: worrying about Buffy (whom he knows is far away and never going to be with him) instead of focusing on the disaster that is W&H.

    No offense and I mean this in a nice way, but I remember you liking Angel a bit more?

    Agreed. I find Angel fascinating in S4 even if he's not a good father. And I do love the Connor/Angel dynamic. I hate Cangel though because it's so badly written, clearly attempts to be the healthy relationship (as opposed to Bangel) which it's not, and is never interesting. It's dysfunctional, even in You're Welcome.
     
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  2. Scooby Corps

    Scooby Corps Fly! Be free, little bird, you defy category!

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    Yeah, it was funny comic relief (especially Angel's doofus grin at Wesley's utter disbelieve). BUT it was also Angel taking a shallow line of the least resistance AND being successful with it. Well, one could argue that Angel was just clever because he read Cordy correctly, but then it lessens his sincerity. I mean, there's nothing wrong with buying clothes to please someone per se and Angel's got a good taste, but you know... To Angel's credit, he generally sucks in even attempting to make up for things on an individual level, see him barely talking to Willow or only going to Giles when he needed something from him despite that Angelus hurt both of them gravely. So it's nice and speaks of growth that he at least tried *something*. To Angel's discredit, he only cares enough for the current Woman in his life (Buffy, Darla, Cordelia) to even think about individual atonement. Lol, I would have found it hilarious and appropriate if he'd bought Willow a new wardrobe for sending her into a coma and for his soul, because Willow desperately could've used it (and he's got way more taste than Buffy). :D

    I shouldn't have said rape-victims, as in plural.

    From Untouched:

    Bethany was sexually abused by her father, ergo rape-victim.

    Bethany: "Yeah. Where I'm from, you know, they still just have coffee. Everything else is that L.A. stuff."
    Cordy: "Yeah. Don't bone my boss."
    Bethany: "What?"
    Cordy: "Angel. He's strictly a no-bone."
    Bethany: "I wasn't... (Cordy raises her eyebrows at her) Cordelia, I don't wanna sleep with Angel."
    Cordy: "The thing about Angel, he's old-fashioned - *old* fashioned - like the age of chivalry. He sees you as, pretty much, the damsel in distress. - I think it's a little more complicated than that."
    Bethany: "W-why are you... I never..."
    Cordy: "I think you're kind of dangerous. - I'm not being mean. I like you. I do. But - you come on all helpless and... I mean, people that have thought that you were helpless before - have died."


    I mean, WTF?

    Oh, I like Cangel in "You're Welcome" also better because it ties back to their early dynamic. Though I wouldn't say it's cry-worthy because I read Angel (and A.I.) already very dark at this point (with encouragement from Cordy). I mean, what did he say? Something like "'cause I'm Angel. I beat the bad guys" and then watched in glee Lindsey getting sucked into Wolfram & Hart's portal.

    Yeah, they tried to make some tension with the Angel/Cordy/Groo triangle. But it's clear that Cordy is supposed to become Angel's First Lady and Groo is a weak character with little resonance to me.

    Oh, I do like Angel and no offense taken. I like him more on BtVS and AtS S1-2 than the later seasons but he's still very interesting to me. However, he's hardly a saint, has some serious issues, and I read A.I., and Angel in particular, increasingly dark as the show progresses. Angel to a greater and Fred/Wesley/Gunn/Lorne/Spike to a lesser degree basically reach villainous status in S05 without them realizing it.

    Well, IMO, Willow indicated in Orpheus that she would help whenever they need them. I mean, she just did exactly that in the middle of an apocalypse. It wouldn't have taken Angel much effort to go to Revello Drive and just ask her if she could take a mystical look at Cordy. Angel doesn't know (I doubt it was subject during Bangel's "intensity" between Flooded and Life Serial, the last time they spoke to each other) that Willow successfully diagnosed and cured Buffy's catatonic state in TWotW but he knows that she's powerful enough to ensoul him twice, remove a forcefield around the Box of Gavroth, bring her evil twin to this reality and back, resurrect Buffy, and hold her own against the Beastmaster. She probably would have told him that she can't do something *right now* because the end battle was close, but after that? IMO, Willow would've happily gone to L.A. and tried her best after having recovered from the empowerment spell because that's her MO. It's not that she definitely would've been able to cure Cordelia but it's worth a try. Angel putting his sole trust into W&H (evil law firm with undisclosed greater agenda) isn't really to Angel's credit either. Maybe Angel didn't think of Willow's abilities but, IMO, just having the decency to tell Cordelia's childhood companion about her condition would urge Willow to offer help on her own. I don't think Cordelia would want her condition to be a secret if this lessens her chances for a cure (I mean, it's Cordy), but even if, there are boundaries to the patient's desires. Cordelia's alleged opinion isn't a major factor in this case especially because she can't express it.

    I think it's more likely that A.I. didn't try to reach Willow previous to when it came to resurrecting Fred out of immediate despair. It seemed like the first time they thought about her at all which fits A.I.'s general isolationism from the outside in S05.

    I think Angel hoped he just could forget for a while and suppress the disasters in L.A. with Cordy, Connor, W&H, Jasmine etc. by being Buffy's White Knight in her distress. He just lost Cordy, technically killed Connor (and lost him too) and mindwiped his team (thus removing their ability to make a rational decision re: joining W&H). Much about Angel's by turns focus on Buffy, Darla, Cordy, his status as a "Champion" chosen by TPTB, helping the helpless etc., is idealization to give himself purpose and solace. In some ways, he parallels Willow, though with Angel it's about salvation while with Willow it's about taking on role models because she's got no core belief in her own identity. However, they both put Buffy on a pedestal for instance. Anyway... Angel hoped he could return to alleged easier and earlier times with Buffy for distraction and Spuffy was a punch in the gut and destroyed his delusions. I can sort of feel for him (Spike doesn't come off any better, for the record) but well, he's whiny and childish. It's typical for both Champires. It's always Buffy, Buffy, Buffy and no one else matters as soon as she's in immediate local and emotional proximity. It does get annoying sometimes in both Bangel and Spuffy.

    I think Bangel is the best-written and most interesting romance of Buffy but it ended just in time when I started to get tired of it. I disagree that Bangel was healthy and without dysfunctions, though.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2016
  3. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    I prefer him in those seasons as well and I know he has plenty of flaws. I don't think the group becomes villainous in S5, but I'm also not concerned with some of the moral dilemmas BtVS, and the fans by extension, care about. For example, I don't care that Lorne killed Lindsey. He had to be killed. If he can't go to jail (why would he be arrested?) then he needs to be killed. I also think most of W&H is evil so killing human employees doesn't bother me. I guess that's why I don't see Angel or Wesley as villains in S5.

    Well, yeah and the Scooby Gang never contacted the A.I team to help out even when they needed it. It goes both ways.

    The team had already decided to join W&H before Angel signed the contract. And Angel can't sign a contract for his employees. Angel signed his contract first and everyone followed out of their own volition. Not knowing about Connor didn't change their decisions. The minute the team walked into W&H the decision had been made and it didn't change when their memories did. I'm not trying to ignore the moral implications of Angel's decision, but Angel didn't force anyone to join W&H.

    Angel went to Sunnydale to give Buffy the amulet. He didn't know she would be fighting Caleb. He wasn't there to rescue the damsel or to rekindle anything with Buffy. He was surprised when she kissed him. Spuffy didn't destroy his delusions. He hates Spike and now Spike has a soul (curse free) and breezed through the confusion and guilt of getting one. Angel's hurt and anger, which is very understandable, translates itself into pettiness. Also, Buffy is dating someone else and Angel's jealous. This is why Spuffy is painful for Angel. It's not because he expected to hook up with Buffy. And Buffy and Angel are the same in that regard. If Angel had told Buffy about Darla and Cordelia, she would have blown a gasket.
    Angel isn't all about Buffy, even when Buffy is close by. That's an unfair description of him. In Home, he put his morals first (by refusing to be bribed by Lilah with her offer to let Angel "handle Buffy"). Angel lived 5 years (in the show) without Buffy and survived her death. He created a life for himself. Just because he loves Buffy, it doesn't mean he's all about Buffy. He only had a handful of meetings with Buffy after he left to L.A., but let me go through them one by one. In IWRY, after he turns human, he consults the Oracles and puts what's best for himself and Buffy first, before giving in to their attraction. After, he chooses humanity over his and Buffy's happiness. In Sanctuary, he puts Faith first (upsetting Buffy in the process), but then apologizes to Buffy in The Yoko Factor (he goes to Sunnydale for Buffy so she's his only concern). In Forever, he's in Sunnydale for Buffy, so, again, who else was he supposed to be worry about? In Flooded, same thing. In Chosen, he goes to Sunnydale to deliver something to Buffy and to help out in the apocalypse. When Buffy tells him to make a second front in L.A, he leaves without throwing a tantrum. Regardless of his behavior toward Spike, he does what's best. Also, he's not very concerned about saving the damsel. He listens when Buffy tells him she can handle Caleb and he listens when Buffy explains his )nonexistent) role in the battle.

    I never said Bangel was perfectly healthy.
     
  4. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Angel has better taste than Buffy?!

    Huh. I forgot about that. That's in early season 2, though - when Cangel weren't even a blip on the radar. So I don't see how that is a problem with Cangel.

    And I excuse that as Cordy being her usual tactless self...

    If anything, I should have been more bothered by Cordy's torture-happy attitude ("Have at it!"). The "I beat the bad guys" line mostly bothers me because it's cheesy.

    I agree that there's lots of shade of grey to 'You're Welcome' (obviously. There's shades of grey to all of season 5. That's kind of the theme - corruption), but not in a way that bothers me. Cordy was there to remind Angel of who he was before he signed on with W&H, and she did that fantastically. And when she disappears in the end, it's always heartbreaking for me.

    Well, it's no Spuffy or Xanya or Tillow, but Cangel was a decent romance (an "unrequited-love" type of romance) during the first half of season 3.
     
  5. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    I didn't see Cordelia telling Bethany that as being slut-shaming. I saw her as being protective of Angel, and by extension Bethany (Cordelia still thought any sex would cause Angel to revert to Angelus as she's just shallow that way, or was at the time). She could've been more tactful, but I don't see her as slut shaming there. It's more like how Cordelia was worried about Angel becoming Angelus telling him not to do certain things.

    But there is that scene in Eternity where Cordelia thinks Angelus is on the loose again and she tells the actress, "You slut." I'll put that into slut-shaming territory, though of course Cordelia had made the wrong assumption about what happened. Though assuming Cordelia did tell the actress about Angelus and the curse, then the actress was really stupid to give Angel that happy pill, and "You idiot" would have been more appropriate (though not helpful). I don't buy the explanation that the happiness was "artificial" either since happiness is essentially a chemical reaction in the brain, though conceivably there was some small part of Angel horrified at what he was doing and that prevented him from reaching "true happiness."
     
  6. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    Just quoting this again because it's kind of beautifully worded. And I absolutely agree.

    However I don't get the problem people have with Angel not having a problem with Connor/Cordy and the age difference. Even though she looks older (especially pregnant) Cordy was what...21/22 in S4? Connor was about 18 (or close to it) when they had sex. That's not exactly a giant age difference between the characters.
     
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  7. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    Thank you!! "Beautifully worded", that's a nice compliment :D

    Connor acts like a teenager, more so than any other teenager on the show besides Dawn. Look at Connor in "A New World". That's the first time he sees a girl. He knows nothing about the world or about romance. He doesn't know what to expect from Cordelia or know how to interpret her behavior, he doesn't understand his feelings, etc. Angel/Buffy had a huge age difference, but Buffy and Angel were on the same page when it came to romance. They were both in love for the first time, figuring out how they felt, how to get over oneanother, their feelings were equally intense, etc. There was equality there. Also, Buffy had the responsibility to save the people of Sunnydale/the world on a daily basis. She's pretty much an adult. Connor isn't even remotely in the same league as Buffy was emotionally. And Cordelia at that point was being mommy Cordelia. Her experience as far as romance goes was superior to Angel's in BtVS. Connor/Cordelia were written as a somewhat realistic story of an older woman manipulating a teenage boy. And, to me, it comes across that way. It also doesn't help that Charisma was looking her actual age (early 30s) and Vincent looked very young (barely 20).
     
  8. Dagenspear

    Dagenspear Scooby

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    I'm sorry, but that's not even the issue. Angel's son died, he thought, because of Wesley's actions. He betrayed the team. Cordelia had very greatly bonded with that baby. Out of the 2, yes, Angel's feelings were the priority. Because it was Angel's son. It wasn't because love. It's because Wesley was wrong and he got a baby killed, as far as they thought, because of that. Cordelia was well within her character to disregard Wesley's needs in favor of the grieving dad of the child that she deeply cared about. Have a very great day! God bless you all!
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 17, 2016 ---
    Cordelia did none of that. That was Jasmine having bodyjacked Cordelia. It was as much a violation for her as it was Connor.
     
  9. Dagenspear

    Dagenspear Scooby

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    I'd like to also point out that every time Cordelia's been betrayed her reaction has been to disconnect from that person or people. So, her doing that to Wesley is in character.
     
  10. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    I didn't say otherwise. I don't judge Cordelia for what happened in S4. @RomanticSoul was asking why the Connor/Cordelia affair and age difference bothered people. I explained why. Regardless of the fact that Cordy was being possessed by Jasmine, people see Cordy in S4 and react negatively to the Connor/Cordelia thing. I think it's natural and understand where everyone comes from even if, personally, it doesn't bother me since I know it's not real Cordy. I mean, I'm bothered by how it affects Connor and Angel, but that's it.
     
  11. GraceK

    GraceK Grr Arrg

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    Good points, and I understand the anger Cordelia would feel. However, she completely wrote him off. She didn't even try to understand what his reasoning was, or even see if he was ok. And honestly, not to sound callous, but it's not like Wesley killed Connor. His intention was to raise him, to save his life. It went terribly wrong, but at the end, Justine and Holtz are to blame for what happened to Connor. This is just my opinion, but to me, it seemed OOC that Cordelia gave no shits about a friend she has known for years. Even Fred visited Wesley...in the end, I don't even blame Cordelia, I blame the writers for assassinating her character to prop up Angel.[/QUOTE]
     
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  12. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    I don't think this is an unpopular opinion. If you follow the avid shippers on this forum, you realize that a lot of people give a lot of thought to what would be the best ship. 5'7" Cordy and 6'1" Angel looked good together in "Waiting in the Wings" and did not have the height disparity of 5'3" Buffy and Angel, so it didn't look as much like cartoon characters. But I agree, adding a ship just for the sake of stirring up shipper interest is possibly a good writing tactic but since neither of them are really that connected and Angel does still (and will probably always) carry the torch for Buffy, it all seems to be over before it begins.

    Apparently Charisma asked for an amendment to her contract to allow her to cut her hair (appearance specifications are often in the contract including exclusion of pregnancy that got her forced out) and to make it look good, she went blonde. I think she had been Angel's cheerleader from the beginning of the show since he was the only person she recognized in L.A. and he gave her a job, something she was unable to get on her own. It was a dumb idea for the writers - neither one of them has the acting ability to sell a love interest. Bangel was carried by SMG. Now that may be an unpopular opinion!
     
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  13. GraceK

    GraceK Grr Arrg

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    lol you made me spit my drink out with that last part!! I guess one of my biggest problems is after the huge deal they made about Bangel never being able to work, cause reasons, why is it suddenly ok with Cangel? That does Cordelia no favors really, cause it makes it seem like he will never really
    Love her like he did Buffy so it's safer...(my opinion btw) plus I resent how they forced it down our throats...kryumption..really? Cordelia as this epic warrior who's made to be with Angel? It's ridiculous.
     
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  14. GraceK

    GraceK Grr Arrg

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    This !! I recently had a son. My first. Rewatching season 3 my heart breaks for Angel when Connor gets taken. It never connected with me before until I had my baby. I was completely on his side and just as devastated when Connor got taken . That's why I find it unbelievable how Angel treats Connor in season 4. Your friend took advantage of your emotionally damaged son, who is younger by the way , and your mad at him? Even his anger at Cordelia seemed rooted in jealousy rather than the fact that it was his son she slept with. His lost, young, damaged son. And no one seems to blink an eye!!' It's all pity for Angel, instead of righteous anger and disgust at Cordelia. "Killing " Connor at the end and giving him a new life was probably the best and most selfless thing he could have done. Finally.[/QUOTE]
     
  15. Tez

    Tez Townie

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    I don't personally think it was forced you can see it from season 1 really and I think with Cordelia it's a lot diffrent I mean she can't really have a chance to have a normal life with the visions and then part demon oh and a ghost room mate and also I think Cordelia has a very different view on Angel Cordelia is completely at ease over the whole vampire thing also there's the fact that he lead a lot more of a human life in la I think everything was diffrent and it was a good example of best friends falling in love that's just my opinion though
     
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  16. Taaroko

    Taaroko Gunner of the USS Buffy/Angel

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    I've always felt, independent of being a Buffy/Angel shipper, that Angel/Cordy was forced and awful and pretty much ruined both characters in S3 (neither love triangle in S3 did any favors for any of the characters involved). What originally made Cordelia such a valuable friend to Angel was that she was painfully frank and honest with him about everything, just like she is with everyone else. Like a sister would be. And unlike everyone else (except Wes and Gunn, who also had sibling-esque relationships with her), I think Angel appreciated that quality because he knew it kept him grounded, and it was a big part of why he came to care about her so much. I loved that, and I was utterly bewildered when all that kyrumption talk popped up out of nowhere. Angel got slightly better (less dorky, anyway) in S4 and Cordy was controlled by Jasmine so at least it wasn't her just being straight-up OOC. I definitely marked Angel trying to regain the team's friendship and trust as the emergence of the Dork!Angel qualities I so loathe, and Cordelia's character development was definitely hard to swallow in S3, but I don't think I've ever paid enough attention to the friendship itself to realize that it was wildly consistent from S2 to S3 as well. Now I don't know how I missed it. Dang. This thread has given me a lot to think about.