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Unpopular Opinions 3.0

Discussion in 'Sunnydale Cemetery' started by vellavu, May 30, 2016.

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  1. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    What were you like when you came back? If depressed, did being in pain and stuck in a hospital (and possibly worse stuff) have a lot to do with that? How did it affect your life in the long run?
     
  2. cryptwarmer

    cryptwarmer I'm in charge of morale!

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    Black Thorn
    I wasn't in the hospital long, and good thing about bleeding to death is it's pretty much painless. Some of the things done to me on site in an attempt to save me hurt like heck, but luckily that didn't last long.

    Some of the depression may have been the result of the trauma surrounding the situation, but most of the long term stuff was integrating being here where the OKness is harder to remember. I believe that ultimately everything is OK, but I live in the day to day, and lots of time things don't feel so OK.

    For quite awhile following the incident, there was an incredible sense of loss, for having given up that to return here. And yes, I did have the chance to stay there or return here, but I didn't meet a being or anything, it's hard to explain. I came back for the right reasons and ultimately I am glad I did, but that didn't make it easy.

    I also had to sort out what my experience meant in light of the faith I was practicing at the time. My NDE was completely nontheistic, and it was also totally awesome. Awesome in the old fashioned sense of the word, as in instilling a sense of awe, not just really cool.

    That is probably the best and most lasting influence on my life. I grew up believing in pantheism (the universe is the ultimate reality, it IS what IS) but was raised practicing a religion. I never really believed what the religion taught, but I never realized that the things I believed could be considered a faith. The NDE pretty much knit it all together and even though it took time for me to make sense of things, I ended up with a much better approach to life and my relationship to everything.

    Once I tapped into that, and integrating that understanding into my life on all levels, I stopped being sad that I came back. My life is where I am supposed to be, obviously, since that is where the universe has me. I didn't miss an opportunity or anything, and life is astounding even when it's scary and painful. I KNOW that, in a way I probably never would have if I didn't have the experience I did.
     
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  3. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    Yes, except the Angel bit is ignored until Giles gets it out of her. Oh, and Buffy tries to tell the counselor in episode 4. Other than that the secret isn't really used to create conflict and it's not rubbed in our noses that long. However, my main point wasn't about the secret being the source of drama an entire season, but rather secrets. The heaven bit is the first one, than you have Dawn's clepto issues, Xander hiding his engagement, Xander and Anya's misunderstanding concerning marriage, Willow's usage of magic, Buffy and Spike having sex, etc. These are way too many secrets and lies imo and the show maximizes the drama by dragging these issues for as long as it can.

    We are shown Buffy's tiresome existence and her overall dissatisfaction, I agree, but the initial focus on the "I'm out of heaven" debacle creates, for me, an unrealistic approach to her depression. It feels like being brought back is what suddenly caused her unhappiness and inability to be fulfilled with her life. It was badly executed.
     
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  4. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    That's a good point about season 6 having a lot of secrets. It doesn't bother me personally (It really fits the themes of the season. Like they sing: "Understand, we'll go hand in hand, but we'll walk alone in fear". The scoobies are together, but they're not REALLY together. The secrets play into that), but I can see how some people might not like it.

    I think the "heaven" thing only plays a big part in episode 3, 'After Life' (which is like a mystery episode - throughout the episode we see that something is very, very wrong with Buffy, but we don't know exactly what, because she barely speaks. Then, at the end of the episode, we get that heartbreaking reveal :(), and in the musical and 'Tabula Rasa'. That's just 3 episodes. The rest of the time, we don't see Buffy being all "woe is me for I have been expelled from heaven", we just see her being depressed. In episode 4, the depression is linked with everyday life struggles (taxes and stuff), in episode 5, the depression is linked with attempts to find a job/college, in episode 6 the depression is linked with her attempts to shirk her responsibilities, in episodes 9 & 10 the depression is linked with Buffy's attempts to feel good via an unhealthy relationship, in episode 11 the depression is linked with attempts to deal with responsibility (Dawn's welfare-worker-thing), in episode 12 it's linked with soulless jobs, in episode 13 it's abusive relationships, and so on...
    The "Heaven" thing is just the event that kickstarted the depression, which is pretty realistic IMO.
     
    Carrie Hopewell: We're definitively going to have to agree to disagree on this :)
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2016
  5. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Think there are a number of episodes where it is raised actually. Once More With Feeling is another one, and I think also Dead Things when she asks Tara to check if she came back from Heaven wrong. Its not like it has to be mentioned in every episode, just enough to prove that its a factor in Buffy's state of mind that season. Of course its not just that, that makes her depressed.
     
  6. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Like I said, it plays an important part in 3 episodes - 'After Life', 'Once More With Feeling', and 'Tabula Rasa'. In 'Dead Things' it is part of a very different context - it isn't about Buffy being depressed because she isn't in "heaven", it's about Buffy using her "came back wrong" status as an excuse for her behaviour.

    I just don't agree with the idea that Buffy's "heaven" thing damaged the depression storyline in any way. IMO, It simply served as a catalyst for the depression that was brewing in Buffy ever since season 1.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 18, 2016 ---
    Mr Trick:

    Yeah, I'll give you that, heh.
     
    Mr Trick: Maybe, but I still think it is part of the reason in Dead Things.
  7. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    Earshot is one of those overrated "underrated Buffy episodes". I have mainly two (huge) points of contention with this episode.

    1. Buffy was insanely irritating - she spent the whole time complaining about not going to a game, then about the aspect of the demon; she was unnecessarily cold with Angel and, really, we didn't need anymore Bangel drama (Example: Angel says "Believe me, I won't let anything hurt you if I can help it. And no matter what happens, I'll be with you. I'll love you even if you're covered with slime." to which Buffy replies "I liked everything up until that". Ugh. Lighten up Buffy. That was almost a sweet moment).

    2. I have serious issues with how they handled the suicide attempt.
    Firstly, Buffy thought that the guy who was actually going to kill himself was going to kill the class. I know she has reasons to believe this, but a suicidal student gets confused for a homicidal student? Really? Ouch.
    Secondly, Buffy's speech, supposedly the best part of the episode, is actually very unhelpful. She tells him she doesn't pay him any attention, lists her personal problems and neglects his, compares his pain to everyone else's (this is NEVER helpful) and, even worse, compares his struggles to those of the popular kids. When you're feeling down you don't need someone to tell you your problems are insignificant or "I feel the say way", you need someone who listens and empathizes with you, who validates and acknowledges your feelings. If Buffy had given me that speech I would have felt pissed off and worse off than before.
    Thirdly, when Buffy realizes that Johnathan was there to kill himself, all she says is "Oh". Seriously? That's all you have to say? The fact that Buffy still needs to find the person who is going to kill the students and has no time for Johnathan is beyond insensitive IMO.
    Finally, this scene at the end was uncalled for:

    BUFFY - It's nice to be able to help someone in a non-slaying capacity. But he's starting to get that look, like he's gonna ask me to the prom.

    GILES - Well, you know, it would probably help his self esteem if --

    BUFFY - What am I, Saint Buffy? He's like three feet tall.

    Really? After an episode about suicide? Have some tact.
     
    sosa lola: Buffy's speech bothered me, too.
    sosa lola likes this.
  8. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    I like Faith & Wood together :)
     
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  9. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    I don't. :p
     
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  10. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    That would be why this is unpopular.
     
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  11. Tome

    Tome Berktwad

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    Black Thorn
    Yes, it is too bad that their relationship began so late in the series.
     
  12. Taake

    Taake Tweedledee Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    I would have liked to see more of Faith and Wood as well. I think she humanized him. Before that he was kind of meh to me, there was just something lacking to his character in general. That disappeared when he was with Faith. I would rather have seen her with him than hanging out with Spike in the basement.
     
  13. black cat

    black cat " The earth is definitely doomed".

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    Sineya
    It would be intetesting see Buffy and others with less " centric- romantic issues"..... In my opinion too much focus about searching " true love" ..... And more interesting about magical world and others stuff with lessons ( a little bit as " Harry Potter" ) :D

    Interaction between the " Buffy" team and " Angel team" .... Without Buffy/Angel drama....

    Season six and seven were, in my opinion, not good as the others and difficult to watch...

    More space for " minor" character and less Slayery centric

    And so on:)
     
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  14. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    As part of my never-ending quest to get people to love season 8, I have to say: I absolutely agree about this. Buffy was always bigger than her romances, IMO, and I always wished we'd have gotten a little more focus on the non-romantic stuff... Which is part of the reason why I love season 8 so much - it's the ONLY season in which Buffy doesn't have a consistent love interest, and the only season in which the main conflict is NOT about her romantic relationship in any major way. Sure, she WANTS to have a relationship, because she's lonely, but there nothing like seasons 1-3 Angel, or seasons 4-5 Riley, or seasons 5-7 Spike, in season 8. Buffy has some stuff with Xander, and some stuff with Sastu, and some stuff with Angel, and even a tiny bit with Spike, but the overall story is always bigger than that. That's one of the reasons I love it so much - season 8 brought the focus back to Buffy, Willow & Xander, and their coming-of-age story. It wasn't built around another one of Buffy's broody boyfriends (Twilight doesn't count!), and I loved it for that.

    Season 5 also benefited from the fact that Buffy's MAIN "love interest" in it was Dawn, and not any boyfriend.

    YES! ALL OF THE YES!

    I still wish we'd get a big crossover event, in which ALL of the Buffy team and ALL of the Angel team unite for a story arc. And we'd see Xander interacting with Gunn! And Buffy and Fred/Illyria! And Giles and Wesley! And Dawn and Connor! It'd be AWESOME!
     
    Bluebird: lol I do enjoy the adventures of your never-ending quest :D
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  15. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    Having spent like an entire day reading unpopular opinions, I have lots to add, so bear with me:

    - AtS is better than BtVS.
    Furthermore, I hate the way people talk about Angel. It's disrespectful to the actors, writers, producers, directors, and everyone else who worked hard on that show for 5 seasons, to insist that Buffy fans should watch Angel because it's "not a bad spin-off" or because Spike is in one season (regularly anyway). It's also disrespectful to BtVS to encourage fans to watch AtS by speaking ill of Angel's character (instead of saying "he was boring and one-dimensional", why not say "he had potential "?) or by making it seem like Buffy is an immature show. Sometimes, the way people speak of AtS reminds me of men who compliment a woman by insulting the entire gender ("I like that you're not shallow like other women" for example :eek:). I also don't understand why people behave like BtVS is a thousand times superior to AtS (despite having a lot of the same writers, directors, producers) in a way that goes beyond personal preference, and that by watching the show they are being indulgent. I see such ridiculous condescension in the way Buffy fans speak of Angel (and vice-versa).

    - I don't really like Spike from S5 onward (a very popular unpopular opinion I think), but mostly he is just an overrated character (he's often considered the best character of the Whedonverse and the best vampire ever for some reason...).

    - David Boreanaz is one of the strongest actors of the shows. I get tired of people insulting him. He played Angel for eight seasons (he's the character with the most amount of episodes) and was bad in S1 and some of S2. However, he was great in AtS and improved consistently, without dips in his performance. By season 4 he had mastered subtleness and was amazing at portraying Angel's strengths and weaknesses without ever overacting.

    - James Marsters often overacted.

    - Last thing about DB (people give him a lot of unnecessary crap): it's nobody's business how much weight he put on in the later seasons and it's in bad taste to keep bringing that up. Also, DB (or JM is S7) is not fat. It's absurd to thing either DB or JM were ever fat.

    - Fred had a crush on Angel, Gunn, Wes, almost on Spike, and on Knox. She was one of those characters that got passed around the main cast and was involved in 2 love triangles, she was either the damsel in distress or a plot device, she is not one of the best Angel character - which is unfortunate since many episodes (the Jasmine arc for example) prove she could be an interesting, fully independent character.

    - You're Welcome is overrated ("I'm Angel, I kill the bad guys", "I know my rights and I need to see a lawyer", really?). I don't think that episode is a good example of Cangel, because there was no romantic chemistry between Angel and Cordy, Angel looked utterly unenthusiastic about rekindling their romance and Cordy did all the work in their kiss. Also, it's not the best farewell to Cordy. She is brought back for one episode to serve Angel and spends the entire time giving Angel a pep talk. Yes, Cordy is wonderful, but instead of Cordy saving the day and dying heroically, she is just the woman behind Angel, giving advice and being protected by him. This could be partly fixed if Cordy had more interactions with the other characters and contributed to something other than Angel's storyline.

    - Cordelia was a lot more in love with Angel than he was with her (I don't even think he was in love with her).

    - I'm upset with Cordelia's arc (obviously). I liked her in S1 and S2, but unlike most people (I think) I don't love Cordy in the beginning of S3. She went from the clueless, shallow but kind and intelligent princess of Pylea to the mother figure of the gang during the S2 hiatus. I hate S3, because Angel gets reduced to an idiot, who needs Cordy to talk to Fred about loneliness, and Cordy becomes the mature, voice of reason. She was always the voice of reason, but the writers blow things way out of proportion. I also don't consider Cordy to be Connor's mother figure. Connor is mostly raised by Angel and spends an almost equal amount of time with Lorne, Wes, Fred and Cordelia (who is absent for 3 episodes and only truly acts like the mom in 'Dad').

    - Cordy going from the whore (on Buffy) to the saint (higher being) and Darla, likewise, going from the whore (prostitute in her human days) to the sacrifical mother is perpetuating the absurd Madonna-whore complex. Fred was written according to the male fantasy: sweet, shy, modest, but strong, flirty, beautiful and intelligent. Cordy (after S3) and Fred were total plot devices (love triangles, being hijacked by gods) which is incredibly sexist. (I believe that is a popular opinion though).

    - Buffy (the character) is extremely overrated and mostly much more sexist than Cordy or the other female characters. Buffy gets more immature (especially when being a teen is no longer an excuse) and can be deeply irritating.

    - Angel is a better character than Buffy - he's more interesting, evolves more and works better as a lead character. Also, not liking Angel isn't an unpopular opinion to me, so I'll just be unpopular and say I love Angel.

    - Gunn is one of the most heroic characters of both shows.

    - Neither season 6 or Spuffy sex are dark and/or provocative.

    - Spike was practically useless in Angel S5, but in no way took over the show. Angel and Spike have the same amount of chemistry that everyone else on the show has.

    - Spike's last scene in 'Not Fade Away' was a lot more worthy and truthful to the character than his last scene in 'Chosen'. I think the absurdity of Spike "saving" the world with the amulet is well documented.

    - I don't care about the longevity of a relationship in the slightest. When discussing most couples, a lot of the arguments for or against usually involve the question - is the relationship healthy? I don't hate Spuffy because it's dark or unhealthy, I dislike it because it's boring, unimaginative and contributes very little to both characters. I love Weslah because it's well written, adds a new layer to Lilah (without redeeming her) and shows that, despite Wesley's darker side, he is morally incorruptible.

    - Weslah is perhaps the best written relationship of the Buffyverse. The best acted one too.

    I'm done. I feel relieved to get all of that out of my chest. :)
     
    cryptwarmer: Glad it makes you feel better! Rock on!
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  16. The Bronze

    The Bronze Rogue Demon Hunter

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    Black Thorn
    Surely that would make it the perfect example of Cangel. Just friends.
    How is Buffy sexist?
     
  17. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    Well, Cangel is a ship name and not the name for the pure friendship with no romance. 'You're Welcome' is a good example of Cangel friendship, but it's often used as an example of Cangel romance. I think you mean that friendship is the best part of the Cangel relationship, but Cangel as a romance needs to have actual romance. In my opinion, the episode is great because it brings Cordy back, offers the Cangel relationship some closure, but it's not an example of Cangel romance done right (like a lot of people seem to think). I don't see any sexual or romantic tension and, in particular on Angel's part, there's nothing to indicate that he's in love with Cordy. All I see is the friendship and that's not Cangel.

    Buffy spends a great portion of her time talking about men, thinks being normal = having a boyfriend always, slut shames women occasionally, etc. Buffy isn't sexist, but she is more sexist than some of the other female characters. Cordy gets sexist storylines (mystical pregnancies, Jasmine, etc), but is, in general, more comfortable with being alone (without a boyfriend I mean, not friends), never says things like: "Hi! I’m an enormous slut" or "you need my help 'cause your girlfriend's a big ho?" and has intelligent opinions about the patriarchy (in 'Guise will be Guise' for example). Another example is 'Halloween', Buffy's attitude is "It must have been wonderful. To put on some fantabulous gown and go to a ball, like a princess... have servants and horses and yet more gowns..." and Willow's is "Still, I think I prefer being able to vote... or I will, when I can...". Buffy might be young there, but she's old enough to know better, like Willow.
    Buffy has many empowering moments, particularly in season 7, 'Checkpoint', 'Becoming', but also has opinions and ideals that oppress women. Cordelia, on the other hand, despite being a victim of sexist plotlines, doesn't have a lot of misogynistic attitudes.
     
  18. FranklyBoredNow

    FranklyBoredNow Townie

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    Him is one of the funniest episodes in the entire series. Once you get past the awful first 10 minutes or so and that terrible Buffy and Dawn conversation about Spike.

    "He tried to rape me....but felt really bad about it." Makes my stomach churn.

    Other than a few moments Oz was really boring. Even his comic appearance's almost put me to sleep.

    S2 is overrated. Also has some of the worst filler episodes of the entire series.

    Faith isn't very interesting.

    I would have been fine with Eliza Dushku permanently taking on the role of Buffy.

    Restless is a pile of crap. Was impressed by how they managed to make Hannigan look like S1 Willow though.
     
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  19. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Agreed. Oz wasn't the most dynamic character . Question is, who had more spark about them, Oz or Riley?

    Disagree. I quite like season 2 overall especially the Spike/Drusilla scenes and would probably say its my favourite Buffy season. Sure, it has its bad episodes but so do all the seasons.

    Agree to an extent. Faith is interesting in small doses, but when she is around too long, it starts to wear thin.

    Disagree. I think SMG has the wider acting range. ED just had to play Buffy in Faith's body, SMG had to play Faith trying to play Buffy in Buffy's body.

    I wouldn't say Restless is a pile of crap, but I wouldn't rank it in my top 5 episodes (that would be School Hard, Hush, Becoming part 2, The Harsh Light of Day, A New Man).
     
  20. FranklyBoredNow

    FranklyBoredNow Townie

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    Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that Dushku would be better than SMG, just that I would have enjoyed a different take on the character.

    Also Willow having to be friends with Buffy in Faith's body would have been hilarious. The potential character interactions alone would make my head spin.
     
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