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vShould Dawn Have Died At The End of Season 5?

Discussion in 'Season 5' started by S Rou, Mar 21, 2017.

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  1. S Rou

    S Rou Townie

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    Should she have? It is no secret that she is extremely loathed as a character... Many fans have questioned why Joss Whedon would keep her on the show while killing off great characters like Tara, Anya, Cordelia, Jenny Calendar, etc. Dawn has always been seen by most as a nuisance and it is almost like her character is written to purposely annoy viewers. Many believed that she shouldn't have been brought into the show to begin with.

    In the fifth season, there is a strong message that family isn't always blood. Actually, blood relatives can be horrible and toxic, as witnessed in the episode "Family" with how Tara's family treated her. It is also known fact that Xander's family was not always very nice to him and Willow definitely had issues with her family as well. In that particular episode, Buffy gives a big speech about how the Scoobies are a "family" and she affirms Tara's important role in the group.

    At the end of the season when they all know the truth about Dawn and Glory's intention to use her to destroy the universe, Buffy wants to risk the lives of billions of people just to save Dawn, who isn't even her real sister, technically (as Giles tells her). Buffy even goes as far as to threaten the others that if they try to kill Dawn to save the universe, she'll kill them. What did you think of this? Doesn't this seem to contradict what Buffy had previously said about family? She clung to her "blood" even though Dawn technically isn't even her real sister, carelessly risking the lives of billions of people and backstabbing her friends who were with her through everything. Dawn was always ungrateful to Buffy and acted like a spoiled brat the vast majority of the time while Willow and the others were always there for Buffy and risked their lives for her on a frequent basis. Yet Buffy was willing to betray them all so fast just to save Dawn... What do you think of this? Was Buffy out of mind? Should Dawn have died at the end of season 5?

    Also, what about if Angel or even Spike tried to talk sense into Buffy? There is no question that Buffy was putting the entire universe at risk just to save Dawn. Willow, Giles, and the others tried to talk sense into Buffy, but she just would not listen to them. If Angel was there and he tried to convince Buffy that killing Dawn was the right thing to do, do you think she would have listened to him? Angel is supposed to be her one true love that she tragically can't be with and she even admitted in season 7 that she loved him more than anyone ever and in the season 8 comics, they have sex and their love is so powerful that it creates an entire universe.

    And then there is always Spike, her other love. The whole Bangel vs. Spuffy debate aside (personally, I'm Team Bangel, but that's besides the point), would she have listened to Spike telling her to kill Dawn if she was on better terms with him such as at the end of season 7? Remember that she still hated him at the end of season 5, but if she was on the terms she was with him later on, would she have listened to him if he tried to tell her to kill Dawn?

    Was Buffy right for carelessly putting the entire universe at risk or should she have just killed Dawn then and there to stop Glory? Was Buffy right for betraying her friends like she did when they wanted to kill Dawn? Should Dawn have died at the end of Season 5? Would Buffy have listened to Angel or Spike if they tried to talk sense into her? What are your thoughts and opinions? Please be polite.
     
  2. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    I don't see Buffy as betraying her friends in season 5, and I somewhat (perhaps even completely) blame the spell the monks cast that made Buffy so protective. Remember all those memories Buffy must go through while she's catatonic are FAKE, and yet they still hold such power over her--and magical delusions are incredibly powerful in the Buffyverse. On top of that Joyce (also under the influence of the spell) made Buffy promise to protect Dawn as something of a last request, and Buffy also wouldn't want to lose Dawn right after her mother. Perhaps more importantly, Buffy felt she was becoming an unfeeling killer, and just slaying Dawn to (hopefully) prevent the end of the world would definitely be taking the path of such a person. In any case, Buffy sets her boundaries which may be reckless and irrational (and I believe Buffy did apologize for it, as if she knew her decision was recklessly sentimental), and that's not betrayal in my eyes.

    I personally think (pure headcanon) that Spike was under the monk's spell as it's the only thing that makes sense of his behavior toward Dawn (especially after Buffy dies), and that therefore he could not have spoken out in favor of killing Dawn.

    And the Buffyverse generally isn't written as a morality tale in which people get what they "deserve." SHOULD generally doesn't enter the picture in the Buffyverse save as character and character development. Perhaps Dawn "should" have been killed to ensure the safety of the world which is part of the character of Giles (and why he killed Ben later on), but not because Dawn was a whiny brat that annoys the viewers. (Even Giles, IIRC, promoted the idea as a last resort.)

    And as for season 7...that's a different Buffy who no longer is as protective of Dawn, and is willing to let a dangerous Spike around her and lead her into battle, and essentially is a bad romance drivel in which only Buffy and Spike care for each other with all other considerations trivial--even incompatible--next to that (and allow for a cameo of a competing love interest in the form of Angel, another common element of romance drivel, er, genre). I expect season 7 Buffy would've defended Spike (saying he's as much a victim as anyone) if he killed Dawn while triggered, but season 5 Buffy would've killed him well before that point (as she intended to do when she learned Glory had Spike), and even if she made an allowance for Spike as he has a soul and can be useful, Buffy of any previous seasons would've at least had Spike bound while he was still afflicted with the trigger (much like Oz on his werewolf days) rather than let him roam loose. Season 7 Buffy was a hypocrite (with double standards so blatant that at first I thought it was deliberate which would be addressed later on) who has little relations with who she was in the previous seasons, and if that's just "character growth" then it's growth for the worse (which only turned out well because of plot armor).

    But going back to season 5, in retrospect it's interesting that Willow and Tara didn't use magic as the monks had, to make Dawn inaccessible to Glory until it was too late, and Buffy might've even agreed to that. And once they realized Glory is Ben then it seems Willow could've done something to bind Glory to the form of Ben, strengthening the prison that already exists.
     
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  3. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    There is a certain logic to the idea that Dawn, after Season 5, should have simply ceased to exist, since the Key would have, supposedly, had no further function, and, if the series had actually ended at that point, the matter would be moot.

    We did have a Season 6, however, and if, for no other reason, Dawn's continued presence might arguably be considered the only thing that kept the gang together. Without her, Giles would have had little or no real reason to Stay in Sunnydale, Xander, Willow and Tara would have had no reason to continue demon fighting, and, without hie promise to watch after Dawn if Buffy didn't survive, Spike would have had no real reason to stick around, either.

    On the other hand, if Buffy had simply let Dawn jump instead of doing it herself, Seasons 6 and 7 might have been much better.
     
  4. Dora

    Dora Potential

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    I always thought Dawn was so wrong the way she was just prised her in did not make sense, it would have made much more sense if something like Buffy had gone to sleep normal one night, woken next morning full term pregnancy and given birth to a baby ( key ) Dawn ? Dawn is hated especially in season 6 Knowing Buffy had died to save her Knowing they had dragged Buffy out of Heaven she was a total whiny bitch. Season seven she was better but still threw her sister out for Faith.
    White Avenger the only thing that could have made season six and seven better is if Spike had died at the end of season 5 , then maybe it would have been about Buffy and her mission , Buffy and her friends like the previous 5 season and not all about depression and sexual Abuse and james Marster taking off his shirt After CWDP season seven was totally all about Spike
     
  5. YummySushiPJs

    YummySushiPJs Scooby

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    Yes Buffy suddenly becoming 9 months pregnant overnight makes so much more sense than a character being created by magic in a show that's already established magic can be used to create things. LOL.

    No offence but as interesting as your pregnancy idea is, it sucks in comparison to what actually happened. By Dawn appearing overnight with all characters acting like she'd always been there the writers got to play with the audience and we genuinely had no idea what was going on. Was Dawn something supernatural and would all be explained? Or were we just meant to believe she'd always been there, the way shows sometimes do? It was excellently done. To complain that "it did not make sense" isnt just missing the point, it's also wrong. It's supposed to not make sense. That's the point. And then, after a few episodes, everything is explained in full, and it DOES make sense. So there's little room for criticism of the concept of how Dawn was created. With Buffy magically being 9 months pregnant, there'd be no mystery that what was occurring was supernatural. The audience wouldn't be drawn in by the mystery ad the payoff. It would just be "Oh.. Buffy's pregnant now. huh." In fact it would probably be a "jump the shark" moment. I'm SO glad they didn't do that. And as a baby, there's not much you could have done with Dawn as a character.

    Can people please stop acting like Dawn is universally hated just to make their points sound stronger. You're actually making it sound weaker because you're not acknowledging plenty of people either like Dawn, are indifferent to her, or even love her character.
     
  6. Anyanka Bunny Killer

    Anyanka Bunny Killer Fear is the mind-killer

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    Black Thorn
    Let Dawn jump, and afterwards, everybody's memories are restored...except Spike.

    Dawn: "Buffy, I have to do this! You know it, I know it..."

    Buffy: "No...no, there's got to be another way. There has to be."

    Dawn (shaking her head): There isn't.

    Buffy: No! Dawnie...!

    Dawn (walks to edge then turns to look at Buffy) "I love you..."

    Buffy: "Please, no..."

    Dawn: "Don't worry...you won't remember this anyway." (Dawn jumps)

    Xander shouts up to Buffy: "What are you doing up there?!"

    Buffy (looking perplexed) "I don't know..."

    Spike (turns to Xander): "So, did we save the world?" (looks around) "Say, where's little bit?"

    Xander (looks confused): "Who...?"

    Spike: (rolls his eyes): Dawn, you idiot. Where is Dawn?"

    Xander: "And again I ask...who?"
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  7. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Spike: 'Is everyone here very stoned?'
     
  8. Dora

    Dora Potential

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    The pregnancy idea makes more sense than Buffy gambling every body life on someone she new was not real Dawn did not have to stay a Baby she could of had accelerated growth or something or changed into a ball of energy after Glory was beaten....The whole ball of energy thing was simply forgotten after season 5 , maybe Dawn using her energy could have shut the Hell mouth in seven ? a complete waste of a good character, As for hating Dawn , Sorry I am a Totally a Buffy fan hence my dislike of Spuffy, just to pass off Dawns behaviour as teen age hormones in six is ridiculous . Buffy died to save Dawn, We see Dawn cuddling the Buffy bot Buffy desperately needed someone in season six just to cuddle, Dawn could have been that someone but she made Buffy life even harder by her selfish attitude .In seven she was better but to throw your sister out of her house......


    Love this this is much better than what happened
     
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  9. WillowSummers88

    WillowSummers88 Townie

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    I like Dawn.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 21, 2017 ---
    How about we have a forum about Kennedy? Ya know Kennedy? Who sent a potential on the path of suicide?
     
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  10. YummySushiPJs

    YummySushiPJs Scooby

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    I will say that I completely agree with this. Dawn's origin story and possible powers is something that should have been explored by the writers on the show post season 5. 100%.

    The rest of your post is so flawed and biased I can't even begin to muster a rational, fair reasoned discussion from it.
     
  11. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    I have always thought Dawn should have jumped and various people's memories of her would follow the path of Johnathan in "Superstar" where the glamour disappeared but at varying rates for different people. Some people were still mad at Johnathan the next day but their memories of his glory were beginning to fade. I like the idea that Buffy may not be the last one to forget Dawn and this shows up in the comics where magic is banished and Dawn gets weaker and people start to respond with, "Who's Dawn?"
     
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  12. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    I don't believe Angel would have told Buffy to kill Dawn. Angel himself put Connor above everything else. Angel would never tell Buffy to kill his sister, especially an innocent girl. In fact, Angel rarely told Buffy what to do. He respected her choices and only commented on them if she asked.
    I do believe Angel could've helped Buffy make sense of her thoughts and come to terms with her decision. Buffy explains to Giles that she killed Angel because she knew she had to, but now she wasn't sure anymore. Angel in season 2 goes through something similar. He chooses revenge and instant gratification (the shanshu reward) because Darla's disruption of his life and his inability to stop her from being dying make him question the meaning of his mission. Angel realizes that if there is no greater ending or meaning to life, than the kindest gestures are worth everything. Saving Dawn would've been that kind gesture that was worth everything. Dawn dying, because she's some key, is a great injustice and just plain absurd. Right or wrong, I believe Buffy chose the more humane decision (and yes I know it put the whole world at risk) and the decision which made more sense to her. I don't think Angel would fault her for that, but perhaps he would've offered to drink some of Dawn's blood and jump into the portal himself?

    In season 5, Spike was irrelevant to Buffy. The narrative protected him at all costs and made it seem like Buffy found him essencial, but Buffy herself didn't care much for him. His opinion in no way topped Giles'.

    As for whether Dawn should have died in The Gift or not... I think on Angel the answer would have been yes, because Dawn's death was the more natural turnout and Ats isn't a show about HEA. Buffy, however, has a lighter tone and is more about things turning out fine after a period of great struggle, so Buffy's sacrifice fits the character and the show perfectly. I don't believe Buffy should've killed Dawn. She should've killed Ben but wasn't strong enough to. Killing Dawn though, would've gone against Buffy's nature and soiled her character even more than s6+s7 did.

    I actually think Dawn's own sacrifice would've been a great ending to her character and the ultimate act of heroism. The audience wouldn't have wept as much but Dawn's death as a way to restore the universe would've been beautiful. Buffy would've lost a loved one, but instead of killing Dawn like she did with a clueless Angel, Dawn would have killed herself out of love for her sister. I find the idea of one season with Dawn and no seasons 6 and 7 very appealing. Dawn's sacrifice wouldn't have been forgotten by the fans and would have made the next seasons sans Dawn that much more significant.

    I don't know, Buffy's death was a great ending to her character (seasons 6 and 7 are a myth), but Dawn's death would have been a great ending also and could have prevented the show from taking such a "dark" (read crappy) turn. *shrugs*
     
  13. Dora

    Dora Potential

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    Bit harsh what did you not like my idea of Buffy pregnancy instead of changing the mind every body Dawn had ever supposed to have met !! or not met , Remember Hank her Dad he lived away was he forgotten? Buffy could not read Angels mind in Earshot how could the monks alter vampire minds? especially Spikes ? Dawn cuddling the Buffy bot but acting as a spoiled brat to Buffy herself ? Dawn siding with Faith and chucking Buffy out of her house ?. No Dawn could and should have been good, lots of room to bring her character foreword, but suffered from poor writing the whole time she was in the show .or is it because I liked Anyanka Bunny killer post ?
     
  14. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Yeah. I like Dawn. Was Buffy's attitude to Dawn and the necessary sacrifice heroic? No, but it was very human.
    Buffy 'knew' that Dawn was not 'her sister' in one particular sense, but she had those memories, she acted upon them. She knew that Dawn was an utter innocent in regards to her own creation.
    So what is Buffy supposed to do? She lost her Mom that year and so naturally didn't want to lose her last close family to horrible blood sacrifice.

    Buffy didn't betray her friends because her friends- apart from Giles- never offered up 'kill Dawn' as a solution, they were all as conflicted as she was.


    Btw a bit off-topic but- I don't really care for the idea that Buffy and Spike's affection for Dawn was part of the spell 'cause well, there's no evidence for it, and it severely devalues what we're shown onscreen. Another form of mind-control.
    Also doesn't explain that Buffy was the only one who had a real problem with Dawn when she first 'arrived'- she grew to care about her more than she had done before. She wasn't a Jasmine pod-person.
    Also Spike wasn't fond of Dawn at all until he started hanging out with her- so where was the spell's effects for that first half season?
     
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  15. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    Simply put, yes. Since I think Dawn should have never shown up in the first place, I'm all for her going far away never to be seen again, especially if all memories of her also go bye bye. I wanted the old Buffy (the character) back so badly. Plus then maybe they could have told a story in S5 that actually makes sense.
     
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  16. AnthonyCordova

    AnthonyCordova Apocalypse Engine

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    Sineya
    The theme of s5 was Buffy's maturation from a girl out of high school to a woman, which for Buffy meant learning to be less selfish, culminating in self-sacrifice for a sister she finally came to love more than life itself. This was the whole point of S5. (This explains why Dawn had to be annoying too...but I won't explain, I'm sure most people can work out why. Being annoyed with Dawn is one thing, but failing to understand why Dawn needed to be problematic for Buffy, including her annoying-ness, is of course important to understanding the season).

    Killing Dawn instead of Buffy would defeat the entire purpose of S5, the entire build up. It literally makes no sense to suggest that. People offer this idea all the time and I am convinced now they failed to get Season 5 entirely.
     
    Priceless: Exactly
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
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  17. Taake

    Taake Tweedledee Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    Should Dawn have died at the end of season 5 - I'm inclined to say yes because it feels like the writers had no idea what to do with her in season 6. She served a non-romantic love interest purpose in season 5 and then it was like the writers got bored of that angle (the problem with creating a character for one specific purpose) and not until the end of season 7 does she even being to get to serve a purpose/have a role. Which is a shame because they had a character they could do a lot with, and instead they just had her haunt the Summer's house and whine occasionally.

    I'm glad she's in the comics though and seems to have a personality and a life not necessarily dependent on Buffy, so in that sense I'm glad that they didn't kill her I guess.

    Cause there can be only one reading of the text? Sorry but I can't stand it when people accuse others of not "getting" the point of something like this. If people really don't 'get' the point, then the writers failed to portray the point clearly and the problem lies there.

    Or there is no specific and definite point to be had, because the writers create a show, then let it out in to the world where the point is interpreted by each individual viewer, which opens up for a variety of interpretations, none necessarily more correct than the other.
     
  18. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    But the problem here is choice. Did Buffy even have a choice? The monks violated everyone's mind and changed memories. Since we know they even changed Buffy's emotional responses to previous events it stands to reason they could implement a fail safe. We can never be sure if Buffy wasn't literally programmed to put Dawn's life above everyone elses or if she chose to. Because then Buffy refusing to let Dawn jump, even when Dawn wants to sacrifice herself, is not a free will or even a choice. It's what she is programmed to do.

    The whole Glory/Dawn/Key story is a mess riddled with plotholes. One thing they refused to do was deal with the consequences of mind altering. Why were the Scoobies so ok with having their memories altered without any of them ever wanting to get their real memories back? It defies human nature. So I have to assume that this is also a failsafe put in place that comes with the spell the monks used.
     
  19. BuffyBot22

    BuffyBot22 Potential

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    I would have preferred if Dawn died since the writers decided to continue with s6 & s7. These seasons weren't just depressing, but completely lost focus of what the show was about. I'm fine with depressing storylines (hence why I love the Angelus story and Buffy's sacrifice so much), but I am not fine with a story ruining all of the main characters for the sake of a ship *cough* Spuffy *cough*

    If s5 would have been the last season, I think Buffy's sacrifice was the most logical choice. It's who Buffy is, and she went out a true hero.
    But, since the show continued, Dawn should have been the one to make the sacrifice so therefore maybe we could have a better story in the latter seasons.

    I find Dawn a far worse person/character in s6 vs. s5. At least in s5 she was a young teenage girl who had a sister fighting demons, a mother that died, and dealing with finding out she was the key to hell on earth. That's a lot to deal with all at once. But, by s6 she should have grown up a bit and realized just how much Buffy sacrificed for her instead of being an ungrateful whiny brat.
     
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  20. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    Trust me. I'll do my very best :mad:

    I want to point out that Buffy does not seem to like Tara all that much at this point. I think her family-comment is a gesture to Willow.
    Cold-hearted pragmatism isn't really a defining feature of Buffy. The order of knights that hunt Dawn serve as a foil to the Scooby gang, just as the Initiative did in the last season.

    You are incredibly hard on Dawn. Buffy is not always the greatest big sister or substitute mum. I do not see why her being a "spoiled brat" matters. Does that make her more deserving of being made a sacrifice.
    There is no way in Hell Spike would have voted to kill Dawn. I know he is evil, but that just would not be his style. Spike would rather face Glory head on, like he did the slayers he killed. Furthermore, he loved the little Bit, and when Spike loves someone, an apocalypse isn't going to make him turn on them.

    I think it was brave - perhaps foolish - to introduce Dawn so late in the show and have her be at odds with Buffy so often. Still, Dawn was a great character with so many amazing moments. She had great chemistry with the other cast, she was a great dancer and she was always relatable.


    This is the girl you want to kill off.
     
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