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vShould Dawn Have Died At The End of Season 5?

Discussion in 'Season 5' started by S Rou, Mar 21, 2017.

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  1. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    I think if Buffy had gotten pregnant during season 4 (after the one night stand with Parker) then her protectiveness towards Dawn would've been completely in-character as she would've been a mother trying to protect her child, rather than it looking like Buffy is just bossing Dawn around. Also it would make Joyce's death harder for Buffy as Joyce was her main support network. It would also make sense why Buffy is moping after Parker (he got her pregnant, she tried to tell him and he doesn't want to know). You also then have a link between Buffy and Nikki Wood (Slayer whose also a mother), it also creates a link to Robin Wood (child of a slayer which shows the potential repercussions of what could happen if Buffy got killed), plus with Spike on the scene, it creates another conflict.
     
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  2. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    Aren't there enough mystical pregnancies on Angel?
     
    BuffyBot22: Yes, yes there is lol
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  3. Cordeliagirl

    Cordeliagirl Oh, Buffy, we're sisters! With different hair.

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    Sineya
    Maybe, What if they have someone else pregnant
     
  4. flow

    flow Potential

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    No.

    The whole point of season 5 was Buffy protecting someone she dearly and truely loved with all her strength and all her heart. And she did. And finally suceeded by giving the gratest gift of all. Her own life. Doing this and what comes after in season 6 (being brought back from death) has a major impact on Buffys development as a person.

    Had she let Dawn die, she would have failed, their would have been no character development at all and no story dvelopment as well. The season would have been around a green ball of light that appears in episode one and disappears in Episode 22 and that would have been it.

    I like Dawn and I think Michelle Trachtenberg did a great Job. Dawn could have been less whining in Episode 6 and she could have had more of an own charater development or story arc in season 7 but those are just tiny flaws.

    Well, I think she is absolute right about that.

    Dawn herself is no threat to anyone. Especially not to the universe. She is innovent. Now what you are saying is that an innocent person can be killed if you save the life of others even if that innocent person is not threatening anyone else.

    Are you really sure about that ? Just imagine someone is threatening to kill you if you do not kill - let`s say - your little sister. Are you really justified in killing your sister ? Are you justified to do so if the life of two people is threatend ? Of ten ? Of hundreds ? Where do you tip the scale ? No, Buffy woul never kill innocent people. Fighting the ones who threaten the innocent people is more her style ;-)

    flow
     
    WillowFromBuffy: /thread
    Cordeliagirl: Great job
    AnthonyCordova: I'm on your side here
  5. Cordeliagirl

    Cordeliagirl Oh, Buffy, we're sisters! With different hair.

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    Sineya
    If Dawn die, Xander and her wont be together in comics. But i think someone else should take buffys place to die for dawn or no one die,
     
  6. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    It's the needs of the many vs the needs of the one. Buffy had a choice: Save the world or Save her sister. Buffy chose to save both and successfully did so at great cost to herself.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 18, 2017 ---
    Buffy's pregnancy wouldn't be mystical, it would be via Parker.

    Wouldn't work. All the links and issues tie in to Buffy being pregnant.
     
  7. Cordeliagirl

    Cordeliagirl Oh, Buffy, we're sisters! With different hair.

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    Sineya
    That would be true, how she getting pregnant?
     
  8. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    From her one night stand with Parker. Dawn would be an actual normal baby but the key got added to her because nothing is more protective than a mother to her child, and since Buffy is the slayer, who better to protect the key?
     
  9. Cordeliagirl

    Cordeliagirl Oh, Buffy, we're sisters! With different hair.

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    Sineya
    Did buffy get pregnant by Parker in season 4?
     
  10. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Not in the actual show.
     
  11. Cordeliagirl

    Cordeliagirl Oh, Buffy, we're sisters! With different hair.

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    Sineya
    Wait in real life?
     
  12. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    What? No. The whole conversation was about if Dawn had been Buffy's daughter rather than her sister.
     
  13. Cordeliagirl

    Cordeliagirl Oh, Buffy, we're sisters! With different hair.

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    Sineya
    Sorry, i was getting confuse. If she did get pregnant, then riley and Angel and spike wont go out with her.
     
  14. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Angel would still love her, Riley would want to step up (especially if Buffy didn't discover she was pregnant until after they started dating) but pre-soul Spike (especially season 4 Spike) wouldn't touch her with a ten foot barge pole.
     
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  15. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    Unless you had another mystical rapid development of the sort that saw Connor be a baby for a couple of episodes then return as a teenager, saddling Buffy with an urchin would drag the show down. There is no way some people would accept this: she has a child and a very dangerous job. And there are still people who object to single motherhood and would think she had lost all moral rights due to that and the show has to play out among all kinds of people.
     
  16. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    But that wouldn't be Dawn. You could not use the same actor and she would not be involved in the apocalypse.

    I would not have liked that at all. It would have set Buffy out of commission for a long time. I don't know how long maternity leave a slayer would need. Feminism and motherhood yay, but would we really wanna see a big bellied Buffy fighting knights atop a moving vehicle?

    Adding to this, we would get even more scenes with Parker. Sarcastic Huzzah!
     
  17. Taake

    Taake Tweedledee Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    Dawn is a threat in and of herself, because she exists, so yes, she is a threat to the Universe. She can't protect herself, and must rely on someone else saving her so the Universe isn't sucked into hell because of her.
    Is she a threat in that she'll kill anyone with her bare hands, no. But obviously, the rest of the Universe would like to stay alive as well, most people in the world are innocent (at least in terms of 'do they deserve to die if Buffy fails because Glory got to Dawn first?' no they don't, no more so than Dawn and in sheer numbers they far outweigh her) From a utalitarian point of view that scale tips where you can maxime the good over the bad, I'd say. It's not a clear cut scale, but hell dimension vs normal world seems like a pretty good scale in defense of anyone wanting to kill Dawn. I'm not saying they should've, been the "are you justified in killing"... seems like a bit of a ridiculous argument to me. Ben was technically innocent too, just like Dawn he didn't ask to be connected to Glory, and I don't see many tears shed for him or much condemnation against Giles either. Because it was good for the many.

    Again I'm not saying they should've killed Dawn. But Buffy saying she'll kill them if they try just shows that she is not a great leader or champion, she's too myopic and focused on her own problems. She plays with the world hanging in the balance. Because it's her show, she gets to win and it's not a problem, however that doesn't mean she's making the right or justifiable calls. Of course, later on she becomes more about the mission and becomes rather unlikable because of it, so it makes sense that this champion Buffy is more popular. It's fiction and we get to see her win because we want to, that's a beautiful thing, the Buffyverse doesn't really deal with reality after all.

    But "Dawn is innocent" holds very little traction as an argument when so many other innocents are involved in the equation.
     
  18. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    Utilitarianism makes a lot of sense in theory, but it hinges on the idea that humans are rational beings. There is a reason why Giles kills Ben himself. He does not want Buffy to become the type of person for whom the end justify the means. Giles is too jaded and dark to be a true champion, though his willingness to tow the line of morality is useful sometimes.
     
    thrasherpix: And this wasn't long after Buffy told Giles how she felt she was becoming a cold killer, so he really did do it to spare Buffy unnecessary pain...so sweet, in a disturbing way. :-D
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  19. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Joyce would babysit a lot which would make her death even worse for Buffy. Buffy has no choice but to be a slayer, she can't give that up just because she has a child. Also it would bring up Nikki Wood since she was a slayer that got pregnant and the fact that Spike killed her. If Season 6 is about Buffy dealing with "adult" problems now that Joyce is gone, then what is more adult than trying to juggle motherhood, a job, and a duty to save the world.

    Buffy would've gotten pregnant in season 4 so he wouldn't have had more of Parker thane originally had. At best there would be an extra scene of Buffy telling/trying to tell Parker about the pregnancy and him not wanting to know. Buffy would obviously do a load of soul searching over whether to continue with the pregnancy or not because she's aware of her job and that she could die, but I also think Willow or somebody will tell her that she can't let her slayer duty control her life. Buffy has never been one to allow her slayer duty to dominate all of her time.
     
  20. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. In this case 1 vs billions.

    Are you saying Buffy is a champion because she can't kill? And that killing for the greater good makes you not a champion? Should I start listing names of the people Buffy has killed or attempted kill? And not even for the greater good either.

    The Gift is the episode where Buffy stops being a hero. Not because she can't kill Ben. But when she refuses to let Dawn jump even when DAWN was ready to sacrifice herself and there was no other way, that is not acceptable. If Buffy hadn't had her epiphany she would have let the world be destroyed. That's the conclusion to take away from that scene. Heroes don't destroy the world, they save it.
     
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