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Was Angel & Faith Season 9 Just Whitewash For Twilight

Discussion in 'Angel & Faith: Season 9' started by thetopher, Nov 22, 2014.

  1. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    This is something I've decided to pick up from another thread instead of continuing to but heads over the whole thing- it was getting very OT.

    I think a lot of people agree that at the end of Season 8 there were a lot of questions about the whole Twilight debacle.
    What was Twilight? What was it's exactly plan again? Why was Angel even involved to begin with and where had he been all this time (since the end of 'After The Fall' the last canon Angel series). Why was he dressed in that silly outfit?
    When was Angel possessed by Twilight and how much control did he have at other times? How many people did Twi/Angel slaughter?

    I always thought that Christos Gage's goal (with Joss' imput) was to try to answer a lot of these questions by bringing in Whistler and Pearl And Nash to put in context what happened and why Angel would've participated in this whole convoluted thing. To try and somehow fit it into Angel's mindset/character.
    Overall I thought he was moderatly successful.

    I mean, for me it doesn't absolve Angel of any of his actions, he still made a choice that led to all this. And I'm still done with the whole Bangel thing- I think its dead after this- but I can kinda squint and see that, yes, Angel's defining character faults might've led him to do something this dumb.

    I just wonder if he can ever come back from it, and I guess that's why I read his comic.
    Am I alone in thinking any of this?

    I've heard some people say that most of S9 Angel & Faith was nothing but a whitewash with Angel apologists patting him on the back and glossing over what he did. That Faith 'followed him around like a puppy' and doesn't criticise him at all. And neither did Willow, or Connor for that matter.

    So what do people think?
    Let's debate: Was it clarification of a really weird apocalypse plot or trying to scrub out all the bad that Angel/Twilight had done?

    Btw-
    Definition of whitewash: A deliberate attempt to conceal unpleasant or incrinating facts about a person or organization in order to protect their reputation.
    Also see: gloss over, exonerate, extenuate.
     
  2. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Angel seems to have no problem at all with making decisions affecting others, with neither permission or even input from the affected parties, and he never seems to offer anything more than a sincere, "I'll really try and not let it happen again, but no guarantees..." which always seems to absolve him of whatever blame might be his due. Twilight is unquestionably the greatest screw up of his career, and he can't even fall back on the Angelus excuse, I never saw this as anything at all but his desire to play Adam to Buffy's Eve, while using the excuse that things would have been somehow worse if he hadn't done anything.

    Being responsible for the deaths of several thousand combined Slayers, military personnel, and civilians, to my way of thinking at least, simply can't be absolved by bringing back one single character, no matter how beloved that character might have been to the main star of the series, and the excuse, "He was under Twilight's influence at the time," simply doesn't hold water when you consider that he was under Twilight's influence, if he actually were, because he VOLUNTARILY allied himself with it.
     
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  3. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    I'm not sure about 'Angel having no problem' with doing these things- the times where he's acted unilateraly have usually torn him up inside ('IWRY' and 'Home' specifically) but he still ended up doing them.
    I do agree that (frustratingly) he still seems to make the same mistake over again when he should know better. He seems to need people around to kick him in the butt if he starts with the whole 'for the greater good' stuff.

    Not sure what you mean by 'the Angelus excuse', I can't remember Angel ever using Angelus as a cop-out or anything, but whatever.

    Angel wants to 'do the right thing' and make amends by fighting the good fight AND be with Buffy, but in the past he could never do both- which is why he left her.
    In Twilight he got to do both- I think that was the appeal, he could save the world, make up for all his sins, and get the girl.
    He should've known there was a catch- i.e lots of bad things happening to other people.

    Ultimately Angel's mistake was trusting Whistler, instead of perhaps his own judgement, and people suffered for it. I personally don't think Angel has suffered enough for this screw-up and really don't see a happy ending for him at this rate.
    It's not that I WANT to see him die horribly, I just think it might be his ultimate fate...

    But, specifically to the question, do you think A&F S9 try to 'whitewash' or whatever Twilight/Angel's crimes, or did it just put them in a (horrible) context?
     
  4. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Sorry, that got posted by mistake before I was finished. The "Angelus excuse" was simply that, the last time that he was involved in a plot to destroy the world, it was in his Angelus persona. In other words, it was his body doing it, but it wasn't, technically, "him" doing it, if you get my meaning.

    And I never considered moving to LA actually "leaving" Buffy, because he kept returning to Sunnydale each season. "Leaving," to me, means going away and staying there. If Buffy is such a temptation to him and a danger to his possession of a soul, then every time he returned to Sunnydale was putting him at risk. (Yeah, I know, those returns were for dramatic crossovers, but, to me, it's still like the cowboy's six shooter firing seven times before reloading)

    Anyhow... To the actual question, yes, Season 9 was, in my opinion, an attempt to somehow absolve Angel for his part in the previous season's actions by making it look like simply feeling guilty and setting himself the goal of bringing Giles back would somehow make everything that he did and tried to do the previous year all better again, not to mention that Buffy, given her own experience with dying and being brought back by her friends and the trauma that the whole process involved, would have been totally against such a thing.
     
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  5. SiegePerilous02

    SiegePerilous02 Potential

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    I think it was, which just indicates to me that Joss shouldn't have gone through with this storyline in the first place if he didn't want Angel to become a full fledged villain. Not that I would want that to happen and I would still likely hate the results, but I would respect Joss a little more for sticking to his guns. As it is, this half assed attempt shows that Whedon wants to have his cake and eat it to.

    But that isn't unique to Angel. Willow, Spike, Anya, Andrew, Xander and others have all been whitewashed to a ridiculous degree. Up until this point, Angel at least got tortured in a hell dimension and has his son taken from him, which is more punishment than anyone else ever got. Honestly, if Angel had become the new Big Bad for real, I might have been rooting for him to take the whole lot of them out.
     
    white avenger: Right. The only character in the entire Buffyverse who made any sort of effort to own up to, and accept punishment for, crimes committed was Faith, and she couldn't even complete her sentence because she had to break out and save Angel.
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  6. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Uh, yeah, that was only part of the reason Angel moved away. He moved away so Buffy could have a full relationship with somebody relatively normal, and that's exactly what happened.
    Buffy's relationship with Riley was ultimately the least-angst ridden/ most healthy one she ended up having. The fact that it ended is neither here nor there- for a time, Buffy was happy, or at least content with somebody else.

    Angel came back to Sunnydale what? Four times in four years, That's a pretty good track record to say he lives only hours away. He visited in 'Pangs' (prompted by a vision) and incidentally possibly saved Buffy's life in the bargain, then he stayed away (at her insistance) until 'The Yoko Factor' going after her to apologise for...something, I don't know what.
    I've seen Sanctuary a nuber of times and still think the ending is one of the few times we see Buffy being truly malicious and trying to emotional hurt somebody by sticking the knife in. But fine, he snaps at her and then goes to make amends.
    Then he comes back for Joyce's funeral, stays one night then leaves and doesn't come back until the apocalypse a couple of years later- bearing the day-saving device and, again, possibly saving Buffy from Caleb.
    Really, he never comes close to putting Buffy in danger- quite the opposite- and obviously feels he has the willpower to not pine away for her even though she's relatively close.

    I get what you're saying, I do. I'm really not a fan of yey anotherr heel/turn from Angel. We have Angelus, possibly one of the nastiest vampires in history and Joss has to come up with ANOTHER evil alter-ego for Angel to have.

    I still don't think its a white-wash though, it feels more like damage control, trying to repair things by giving Angel a half plausable reason for doing all the crazy-shit.

    White-wash would've been to totally absolve Angel of any blame whatsoever and then everybody just gives him a do-over, and I see no evidence of that. Except for in Buffy's s9 comic for her role in those event.
     
  7. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    That's why I was rooting for The First all of S7 to just throw a damn bomb on the Summers house. Too bad The First is such an ineffectual villain. *sigh*

    I personally don't care what they did after the fact. Since I still don't get this Angel becomes Twilight thing. After his character development in the show and even A: ATF it made zero sense to me. All I see is blatant character assasination. That's why for me I stopped reading after S8 and only know snippets about the comics (usually what I read on boards). Also why I don't see them as canon. Aside from the fact that the story has been called fan fiction, would be scrapped completely if they could do a live-action movie and introducing non-canon characters into the supposed canon-comics...why should any of it be considered canon?

    There is also an aspect of blackwashing Angel's character. After what Joss did to the scoobies in S7 and ATS S5 the comics felt like one giant whitewashing of the characters, except maybe Giles. So Angel and crew came out of the shows still looking good (to me) while I can't say the same for the scoobies. And I guess for that not only had whitewashing to take place, Angel had to be thrown under the train. The second most important character in this verse ( second in the sense of having their own show) had to be ruined and his story virtually ignored (other than guest appearances where is what's left alive of his crew?) to tell this crap? If Joss by his own admission doesn't understand Angel and how to write him then the obvoius solution would be to NOT use him. At all. Let Angel be in his own comics like he was before ATS was sacrificed at the BtVS altar. *blech*
     
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  8. SiegePerilous02

    SiegePerilous02 Potential

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    All of this. It's like you read my mind.

    thetopher is right that it is more like damage control than whitewashing, but it is damage that shouldn't have been done in the first place. It's not that Angel is incapable of making morally dubious choices (hello wine cellar and Drogyn neck snap...he loves that neck snap, doesn't he?), it's just that this was one was just so stupidly over the top. The whole storyline seemed engineered to teach Angel and Buffy lessons that they don't need to learn. Angel would not be stupid enough to blindly trust a higher power and prophecy after the Skip/Jasmine/Senior Partners debacles, and Buffy doesn't need to be reminded that her romanticized view of Angel isn't realistic because she stopped having that view of him as early as season 3. Nor would Angel be so arrogant as to separate the good people from the bad and move them over into the Twilight dimension. That completely misses the point of his entire series. Where are Greenwalt and Minear when we need them?

    With Joss's involvement in these things apparently dwindling, and Scott Allie stepping down, I'm starting to view the comics as a mostly failed experiment that I can ignore. Aside from Brian K. Vaughn's arc and some parts of A&F Season 9, they haven't been worth it.
     
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  9. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    And that was four times too many, considering the fact that, every time that Buffy and Angel are in arm's reach of each other, there is a distinct danger of Angelus returning and attempting to destroy the world again. Plus, if Angel really wanted Buffy to move on and have any kind of normal relationship with a more or less normal lover, he should have realized that every time that he returns, it just makes it that much harder for her to do exactly that. The way that Joss wrote them, they are the star crossed lovers who can never be together, no matter how much that they both want it, without potentially endangering themselves, their friends, or the entire world.


    I honestly thought that, with Angel stripped of his powers and flying around Hell on his dragon over in the "After The Fall" story line, that Joss had gotten the two publishers to work out a deal between IDE and Dark Horse, where the Senior Partners had somehow split Angelus and Angel apart, leaving Angel there and allowing Angelus, as Twilight, to be over at Dark Horse. (Just think of the heartbreaking crossover finale. Angel, more or less human, therefore free of his curse, would have to, once more, join himself back with Angelus in order to defeat Twilight) If I had been right, this whole "Angel Whitewashing thing never would have been necessary
     
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  10. SiegePerilous02

    SiegePerilous02 Potential

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    Ooh, I really like this. Would have been nice and tragic, but also bittersweet and kind of awesomely heroic on Angel's part.
    Would have been a hell of a lot better than what we got, and would have actually involved Angel's supporting cast like it should.