1. Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Ten thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

Was Cordelia REALLY made part demon?

Discussion in 'Season 3' started by Dagenspear, Nov 20, 2011.

  1. crazysoulless

    crazysoulless Scooby

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2009
    Messages:
    607
    Likes Received:
    33
    Location:
    Las Vegas, US
    Reputation:
    296
    I can't believe that so many people (Cordy included) believed that she had become a Higher Being that had outgrown the earthly dimension and was being rewarded for not misusing her ability to levitate during visions and have a glow when she's scared.

    Just when you think that the old HBIC/Queen C Cordelia is gone she believes something so unbelievably conceited.

    She didn't have a fraction of the magickal/paranormal ability of a witch (Catherine, Tara, Amy, Willow, the English coven).

    I don't get how so many fans believed it. How does not abusing minor abilities that you can't really even control qualify you for becoming a Higher Being that needs to ascend to a Higher Dimension? Wouldn't Tara have ascended by BtVS S5 if such a thing were to really happen? Willow not being eligible, I get. She abused her powers since close to the beginning. But there were a ton of paranormal people that hadn't.

    It definitely wasn't having visions. Buffy & Drusilla both had visions/prophetic dreams/heightened intuition for many years.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2013
  2. Robb Stark

    Robb Stark King in the North

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    2,588
    Likes Received:
    90
    Location:
    Tempe
    Reputation:
    11,719
    Sineya
    Well, post-S5 I thought it was pretty established that Cordy had transcended and become a Higher Being (whatever that means of course), for real this time. That seemed, to me at least, to be the implication in "You're Welcome", and in "After the Fall" (although it's been a while since I've read the Cordy part in it).

    I think Cordy deserved that "honor" (assuming it is an honor. It always kind of bugged me that the term "Higher Being" was so loosely defined) as much as anyone. Buffy was already the Slayer, and still needed on Earth. Tara was a good person, yes, an incredibly good person, but she never had to endure the visions. Cordy had them thrust on her, she was quite literally the vehicle for the PTB, and had to go from a normal person like everyone else into a position of great sacrifice and pain, and did so simply because it was the right thing to do. I think that's petty impressive. It makes sense that after everything, after she was used and abused by a rogue PTB and had been the avatar for brain-splitting visions for them for so long, Cordy deserved to be rewarded by them.

    Cordy was a very good person, one of the best. Saying she doesn't deserve something because she may not measure up to Buffy or whoever, I don't know, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
     
    Wesley Pryce likes this.
  3. crazysoulless

    crazysoulless Scooby

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2009
    Messages:
    607
    Likes Received:
    33
    Location:
    Las Vegas, US
    Reputation:
    296
    I wasn't trying to say that she wasn't a deserving person. I meant that I didn't buy the storyline or logic of a person in the Buffyverse being told that because they suffered they were going to be rewarded and that they were clearly a Higher Being. Characters suffer. Especially Whedonverse characters.

    I wouldn't really say they were thrust on her. They were a gift from Doyle. It was Doyle's ability. She could've chosen to get rid of them but she realized that it was the thing her good friend was the most proud of and keeping them was in a way, honoring him.

    Doyle had the abilities for a long time and it caused him great pain. But nobody really thought much of it. It was just the ability he had and his lot in life. Even Cordy would say to him, "If I smack you will you have a vision?" But when it was Cordelia having them, suddenly the divinity level increased in people's minds. Suddenly it's not just another person with Seer abilities. Many and possibly all Slayers have visions but they are not thought of as vehicles for the PTB. In fact, Buffy having visions since pre-Welcome to the Hellmouth has been largely ignored.

    When she became part demon she no longer had physical pain or brain damage from the visions. That sacrifice was over. She had 2 years of pain and then it stopped. And we can't really count her being part demon as her sacrificing since there were zero consequences or negativity with it. The writers just stated that she was part demon and it was the end of it. It didn't make her feel less connected to humanity, more bloodthirsty, toy with her sanity, or change her in any emotional or physical way. She looked and acted completely the same.

    It was established by the After the Fall graphic novels. I didn't really get that impression from Your Welcome. She just said that the PTB owed her.

    I think that Cordy should've researched ways to stop the brain damage and keep the visions or to get rid of the visions. I always thought of her doing nothing as being on the same level as Riley nearly letting himself die in Out of my mind instead of contributing to the team in a non-supernatural way. They were afraid that they weren't needed or important without that power. And yet when Riley makes that decision the fans and characters think he's being stupid but when Cordy made that decision the fans and characters thought she was being a hero.

    I wasn't comparing her to Buffy. When I mentioned Buffy I was saying that a lot of people have precog abilities. But on AtS they really tried to make it seem like Cordy's ability was one of the rarest things ever. If Cordelia had lost the visions, there would've still been plenty of demons and monsters and paranormal cases for AI. Important information and danger has a way of finding the Scoobies & the Fang Gang.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2013
    GraceK likes this.
  4. Step

    Step Townie

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2012
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    0
    Reputation:
    40
    I don't really think it was conceited of Cordelia to believe she was ascending to a higher being, I mean why wouldn't she? (If you're reffering to S3 that is) Time literally stopped, as well as that, the news was delivered directly by Skip, at that point in the series, the only thing Cordelia knew about Skip was that he worked directly for the Powers that be and he seemed like a good guy as well as a friend to Cordy, after all he did for her, I don't see why she wouldn't believe him.

    With Doyle, I do think they valued the visions, it's just at that time the only other members there was a highly sarcastic Cordelia, who liked to joke about stuff like that and Angel, who just didn't say much about it, stuff like that also happened with Cordy in season 2.
    And I don't think Riley's and Cordelia's situation's were that similar, it's been a while since I've seen season 5 of Buffy, but didn't Riley know he was going to die? It seemed like Riley only did it so he didn't feel inadequate to his super-powered girlfriend, with Cordelia, her visions were necessary, she was AI's only link to the PTB, without her they would've been pretty lost.

    I don't think a slayer's dreams and Cordy's visions are the same thing at all, IIRC, Slayer dreams come once in a blue moon, are generally vague and only seem to come when HUGE things are happening, like Dawn coming or Angel going evil, though maybe I'm wrong I don't seem to remember much slayer dreams, but regardless I don't think they are as common or as general as a regular seer.

    There also really aren't a lot of people in Buffyverse with pre-cognitive abilities, pretty much just Cordelia, Drusilla, Cassie and Doyle, 3/4 of which have died, the fourth being undead, unless I forgot someone.

    Cordelia sacrificed a lot, her dream life, a normal life when she agreed to be half-demon (I know nothing happened but the fact the she was willing to risk it, not knowing what would happen still speaks volumes for me) and risked her life multiple times for her friends and her visions so I wouldn't see why she wouldn't ascend.

    I also think the most important part was that she was extremely loyal to the powers that be, I always thought that since she practically devoted her life working for the powers, they rewarded her.
     
    Robb Stark: Really like this post, especially the Doyle parts.
  5. crazysoulless

    crazysoulless Scooby

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2009
    Messages:
    607
    Likes Received:
    33
    Location:
    Las Vegas, US
    Reputation:
    296
    Cordy knew she was going to die just as much, no more, than Riley did. She was visiting doctors since nearly the beginning of having the visions and taking strong and then stronger doses of pills.

    It wasn't just that Riley felt not enough for Buffy. He was pretty much turned into Captain America. He loved that the borrowed power made him more able to do his job, help people, and be needed. He was all about feeling needed. He was a better soldier and being a good soldier is his life. He didn't ask to be upgraded and didn't know it would happen until afterwards, just like Cordy. His body couldn't handle the power and was shutting down because of it, just like Cordy. He didn't look for a way out, just like Cordy. He was afraid of who he would be without the power, just like Cordy. He knew he wouldn't be able to help as much in the group, just like Cordy. He wanted to just concentrate on helping now and not think of the toll it was taking on his body, just like Cordy. When others find out there was a problem it was almost too late, just like Cordy. The only big difference is that he had his power removed while she got tricked by Skip.

    I don't think that AI would've been lost. They still would've patrolled. They still would've had weekly cases. They would still have the seasonal Big Bad. When you go looking for trouble, you usually find it. They would always have demons to fight, innocents to protect, and prophecies to try to avert.

    I don't know how much faith I put in the PTB link. I think that it was more of the AI team wanting to believe that they were connected to it and that there was a higher purpose for what they were doing.

    Every demon hunter in history pretty much devoted their life to the PTB. And I don't think any of them got rewarded. It was probably all like the way Buffy described Slayer's lives, "Big protector. Blah blah. Scary battles. Blah blah. Oops, she's dead."

    Her dream life? You mean being a famous actress? That would never have happened. She tried to be an actress for 2 years but she couldn't act (or sing). Sometimes when her life was in danger her acting would improve but when it came to auditions, she only had the looks.

    Buffy's prophetic dreams/visions. We aren't sure how many she actually had, about 2 dozen plus all the ones in the graphic novels. She had many different forms. She had the kind that had someone there telling her what would happen or giving her clues ("you have to know what to see" "Little Miss Muffet counting down to 730" "From beneath you it devours" "It's not enough" The gentlemen song), the kind where she sees one event (the Istanbul & German Potentials being killed), the kind where she sees several events (WTTH montage), the kind where events get mixed together (Dru killing Angel), the kind that was half event and have symbolism (a lot of them), the kind that was all in symbolism, etc. She would see things and be warned of things that would take place that week, months and many years in the future. I'd say that the fact that she didn't get a migraine during them made them less vague. She could see them clearly and sometimes even interact with the people in them. She was disturbed by what she was seeing but they weren't hijacking her mind the way that Cordy's were. And ontop of the precognitive ability she had a certain level of prescience (not nearly as much as Drusilla) that was witnessed on a regular basis, it was jokingly referred to as spidey sense and other things like that but it was pretty serious.
     
  6. Step

    Step Townie

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2012
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    0
    Reputation:
    40
    I think the main thing we disagree on is how necessary the visions really are, I think you're kind of underestimating the vision's, sure the group might have been able to function without them and do some weekly jobs, but without them not only would it have been much harder, but it would've been harder to progress any further than random weekly jobs, now that I think about it, Gunn and Fred would've probably died without the visions before they even became AI members, Angel himself could've died.

    Gunn would've been killed in First Impressions, Fred would've probably been stuck in Pylea as a slave until death, seeing as the only reason they went there was because Cordy had a vision of her and Angel might have been killed by that monster in You're Welcome, and that's just of the top of my head, there were also times, like in the first ten minutes of Expecting, Cordelia has a vision of an demon hatching from it's egg, when Angel and Wes face it, even though it was just born it gave the guys one hell of a fight, sure they might have fought it eventually, but who knows how many innocents it could've killed if they hadn't arrived in time.

    The Scoobies handled themselves fine without Riley's powers.

    Sure it's easy to say they could've functioned fine without the visions, but countless lives were saved thanks to them, AI member's lives were probably saved countless times as well, not to mention an apocalypse was averted in S5 thanks to the visions.

    The PTB link was there, or else season 1's big bad wouldn't have been able to make Cordelia suffer like that, he probably wouldn't have even bothered with her seeing as W&H only sent him to destroy Angels link to the Powers.

    When I said dream life, I meant her life in Birthday~ When Skip altered reality and made her an actress.

    And when I said vague, sometimes, like the dream Dru killing Angel or that little miss muffet thing, nobody really knew what it meant at that time, don't get me wrong, Buffy's dreams can be a real help, like in Hush, but I have never really known them as similar to the other Seer's, which are always direct, generally tell you what's happening, when, where, by who and you can have them whenever not just when you're asleep, which, at least make them a bit more convenient.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2013
  7. chicagoguy46

    chicagoguy46 Townie

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2014
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Reputation:
    11
    An old song has the words "make a blind man take a second look". This could apply to Cordelia!

    ---------- Post added at 01:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:24 PM ----------

    If anyone is interested in old blues/rock, the above line is from "Powerful Stuff" by the Fabulous Thunderbirds. The guitarist is Jimmie Vaughan, older brother of the late Stevie Ray.
     
  8. Xin Rong

    Xin Rong Killed by Dissertation

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    133
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Bolton
    Reputation:
    3,292
    Demon/Angel... they're just words that both refer to exta-human entities, it's possible that Cordy got turned into something resembling a demon or an angel.
     
  9. Cohen

    Cohen All-American Boy

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2005
    Messages:
    1,354
    Likes Received:
    30
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Neptune, California
    Reputation:
    280
    Rethinking (again) maybe it was just a bit of Jasmine that was put into her... and grew as time went on?

    This, again, explains the horrible mom-hair after her vacation.

    And explains the whole visions not being skull-cracky.
     
  10. Kurai

    Kurai Potential

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2013
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    England
    Reputation:
    265
    It could have been something which allowed her to exist on the higher plain, which wouldn't have been possible if she was human. That's part of why Skip was sent down to Earth to help Cordelia. The other big part being that she almost died, and if she died, Jasmine wouldn't have been able to execute her plan.
     
  11. Cordy_Chase

    Cordy_Chase Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass.

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2013
    Messages:
    574
    Likes Received:
    448
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    California
    Reputation:
    510
    Sineya
    The way I see it, when Skip was established as a double agent every notion and explanation he'd ever given Cordelia became invalid.

    If you pay close attention there is subtle evidence of an elaborate backdrop in the 'What-if'-verse ('Birthday'), particularly little pieces of it that don't make sense such as how it's implied that Cordelia only would have met the scout who'd have started her career had she not run into Angel though she'd brushed Angel off to "talk to people who are actually somebody" and the lack of plausibility that Doyle would have passed the visions to Angel in Cordelia's absence given that a heartfelt kiss of love is how the transfer is made. The vision concept is established as true in the 'You're Welcome'/'Power Play' connection in season 5. There is also the literal piece, the address from Cordelia's vision still being written on the wall at the Hyperion which was something she herself had done in the real timeline.

    See my most recent review in the 'Birthday' thread for more evidence that Skip's whole guidance in 'The Matrix'-mall was designed for his/Jasmine's personal agenda.

    I'd had my suspicions from the beginning that the half-demon mutation wasn't what was advertised. There are still some areas in the whole 'what-if-verse concept in 'Birthday' that I haven't been able to fit together, but it felt to me like Skip had exaggerated the effects. He'd said the transformation would "make your vision pains feel like a stroll through candy land" and 5-10 seconds of crying and groaning didn't feel like it lived up that statement, not to me at least.

    But she was able to do that pre-mutation. In season 2's 'Dead End' by Angel's request, she not only willed a replay of her last vision in which a man stabbed himself in his implanted eyeball, but was actually able to zoom in on details such as the school name printed on his child's backpack.
    That's actually something that's kind of baffled me to be honest, to canon knowledge Doyle didn't have that ability and he was a more advanced being than Cordelia. That and how no one seemed interested in looking into the mutation when her new abilities were revealed in 'The Price'.

    Her ability, a bright light that can wipe out plagues of demons and emotionally heal human beings, are pretty inarguably angelic.
    The observation that she ceased to suffer migraines from the visions while Doyle as a born half-demon suffered them is also relevant to this theory. It suggests that she's something greater than the supernatural and it's a sensible notion that a divine being is best designed to bare the visions since they are a divine product.
    It also sensible that she'd have to be divine to enter the higher plain though considering the true nature of that ascension I'm certain it couldn't have been the REAL higher plain she'd been sent to. Unless Jasmine was able to exist in the real higher plain by deceiving the PTB as well with her saintly act. Now that would have been a gripping concept to have highlighted in detail.

    I'm aware that Joss Whedon is atheist but religion hasn't been completely absent from the Buffyverse. Willow was created as a Jewish character which has at times been highlighted (they believe in a God as well), Christmas was celebrated in 'Amends' and it's stated that Buffy had gone to Heaven when she died in the season 5 finale. Then a mopey Spike was found slumped against a cross in a church right after regaining his soul in 'Lessons'.
    Then there is the image in 'Tomorrow', of Cordelia rising to the higher plain within a ray of light and in some horrible rag resembling an angelic robe (Sorry, Charisma is gorgeous, but I hated that whole look, including the hair with a passion). That was a pretty stereotypical Christian representation of an angel.
    Point being that I don't think it's such a stretch to consider that Cordelia was half-angel. I've recently noticed that Skip had a subtle resemblance Satan, he was the deceiver who kind of seduced her with a lovely picture and his design even had slight suggestions of the goat head within the inverted pentagram of the common Satanist crest.
    The Skip thing is probably over the top, I seriously doubt that image was the intention and it's not even relevant really, but I felt compelled to share that I'd observed that comparison.

    NOTE: I need to point out that I do NOT consider myself Christian because I don't believe in the Bible, I reference it as literature just as any book one studies in an English class.

    Now it could be seen as an Anti-Christian statement when you consider that technically whatever Cordelia did to Connor didn't accomplish anything unless it didn't actually do what Cordelia thought it would because it was a bug planted by Jasmine to seduce him which also fits and that the whole design was to destroy her. (There are anti-Christian explanations for other concepts in the show as well such as the names Angel and Angelus for a vampire but I digress).

    You know that whole using her powers on Connor thing is actually flawed now that I think about it. How did she know or what made her think that she had that power, to lift his suffering? If it were Jordy it would make sense but this was pre-higher plain wasn't it? So it was the real Cordelia. I suppose it fits with the fact that Cordelia retained a faint amount of her arrogance even through her evolution and/or that she'd been irrationally driven by her maternal love for Connor.

    I also like @Cohen's suggestion:
    That's an interesting concept to consider (and agreed on the hair, HATED that hair). This is another possible explanation for the possibility that her powers had secretly had a seductive effect on Connor.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2015
    Cohen and Buffy Summers like this.
  12. GraceK

    GraceK Grr Arrg

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2016
    Messages:
    589
    Likes Received:
    1,292
    Gender:
    Female
    Reputation:
    495
    I wish I could love this post a thousand times. I have always felt this way.