1. Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Ten thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

Was Spike mishandled in S8?

Discussion in 'Season 8' started by Robb Stark, Jun 29, 2013.

  1. Buffyverse Fan

    Buffyverse Fan * The 28th *

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2009
    Messages:
    1,710
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    United States
    Reputation:
    715
    Sineya
    I would agree, but in terms of the comics, Spike has been the only one to meet new print-exclusive characters who held my interest.

    The Detective in BS9 was okay, but he hasn't done much recently, where Beck & Betta George made strong impressions during their work with Spike.

    I agree with you & BEG that it says more about Billy's weakness, but just in general, it's been many years now, and I haven't found Buffy's encounters with anyone new to be remotely memorable. On the other hand, I even found Spike's interactions with Sebastian the Cockroach to be memorable.

    Willow, Angel, and Faith have had their moments with new characters, and Xander's fleshed out relationship with Dracula was interesting, but really, we're years into Buffy in print, has anyone been fascinated by a single Buffy interaction with any of the new characters? I know AndrewCrosett initially enjoyed the Satsu storyline, but I don't think even he feels it was handled well in its entirety.
     
  2. Kean

    Kean Professional Bangel

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2007
    Messages:
    11,943
    Likes Received:
    74
    Location:
    Ireland
    Reputation:
    30,234
    Sineya
    I didn't mean it to be taken literally. The point is that people don't get thanked for doing the jobs they were supposed to do. Spike was doing the job of a Champion when he died. Death on the job is pretty much expected.

    Personally, I think the desire to see Buffy greet Spike in a manner fitting an old friend, is getting mixed in with the aftermath of Chosen. Buffy is never going to pat Spike on the back for doing what he signed up to. However, there is a personal case to be made for how she reacts to him as a friend. I feel that the two are getting mixed together and causing the confusion.

    What Buffy may or may not owe Spike as his friend has nothing to do with the fight and slaying. Warriors war, both he and Buffy understand that. Buffy isn't going to think Spike special for doing what she herself has done.

    The matter at hand is personal one of their friendship and that has nothing to do with saving the world.

    ---------- Post added at 01:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:18 AM ----------

    I hear what you're saying but I just can't reconcile the idea of Buffy being uninteresting as a character with me being a fan of hers, specifically, for fifteen years. If she truly needed core characters to prop her up I wouldn't still be here. I just wouldn't. Not least because most of the characters that surround Buffy are characters I have no taste for at all.

    There is no way to defend the Buffy title of S9. It has been appallingly boring but again I feel like that is coming from the writers having zero clue as to what story they want to tell. For me, the writers have kept Buffy in this stagnant holding place where her story can go nowhere but they can't let her out because they need her that way so they can do stuff with other characters. If Buffy moves on the story moves on. It's crap writing and it shows.

    I really liked the Satsu storyline. I didn't like where they took it come the Twilight arc. I don't think it was necessary or even all that in character for Satsu to storm out like that. I would have liked to see more of her.
     
  3. Buffyverse Fan

    Buffyverse Fan * The 28th *

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2009
    Messages:
    1,710
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    United States
    Reputation:
    715
    Sineya
    I think we're all fans of Buffy, but for me, she hasn't had a worthwhile storyline since the Fray arc where she made a story interesting of her own character.

    Buffy's pondering during her visit to the future was so true to her character, imo. After that, the bright spots of the comics had little to do with Buffy's character for me.
     
  4. Black Eye Guy

    Black Eye Guy Taking over the World!

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Messages:
    8,904
    Likes Received:
    61
    Location:
    Ireland
    Reputation:
    23,095
    Black Thorn
    It has everything to do with entitlement. Why was no one asking this question for anyone else in the last 7 years of the show? Why did it take for Spike to come back for people to start saying thank you for stuff? The idea of getting thanked only applied to Spike, and thats what makes it a issue because it's never been a issue before.

    Buffy saves the world in season 2, when she gets back from LA her friends are giving her grief for running away. When Angel returns from hell after what Angelus did everyone gives him grief.
    This wasn't the next scene after he burned up and Buffy just discovered he's alive, he came back over a year ago and didn't bother to tell her, so he's in a similar situtation to Buffy in season 3, he's been away for a while, but alive and when he gets back she gives him grief. Not to mention that from the moment he say Twilight on TV he knew it was Angel and didn't bother to tell anyone till the last moment - that alone is reason to be pissed off with him. I also don't remember her giving him that much grief, no where near as much as the scoobies did to Buffy in season 3.

    But since no one has EVER mentioned thanks before until it applies to Spike, fans go out of their way to heap praise on Spike, it's what ruined the character for me. His action are justified with really bad reasons and people expect praise and reward for the little things he does, since this doesn't seem to apply to other characters I think thats fans feeling Spikes entitled to it.

    [/QUOTE]

    But the premise is. All postmen are doing the same job Buffy, Angel and Spike are all doing the same job, Buffys dies for it, Angels gone to hell for it and Spikes died for it - so Spike should be thanked? No one thinks to thank Buffy and Angel for the stuff they do, just because it's what they do, but as soon as Spike does it, people want him thanked, because they want the character showered in praise.
    I agree theres no problem thanking them for it, but fans dont think to bring up the issue till it applies to Spike, and the only reason for that is becasue they feel he's entitled to it.
     
  5. Robb Stark

    Robb Stark King in the North

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    2,588
    Likes Received:
    74
    Location:
    Tempe
    Reputation:
    11,719
    Sineya
    I understand what you mean, but I don't agree with it. I mean, apocalyptic events are hardly an everyday occurrence in the Buffyverse. And when someone is willing to sacrifice themselves to save others, whether that person's name is Spike, Buffy, Angel, Xander or anyone else, I think that warrants kindness in return. I equate it, loosely, to policeman, firefighters and soldiers in the real world. They don't get shot at or run into burning buildings every shift, but when it does happen, they DO deserve to be lauded for their efforts. Very few people go into those professions for selfish reasons. More often than not it's done because those people want to help people and do the right thing. If a firefighter dies carrying a kid out of burning wreckage, would you not think him worthy of gratitude or warmth because he was just doing his job? No, that's a big reason why police/fire departments and the military award service medals, citations and honors. Because it's right to applaud someone when they do something heroic. It has nothing to do with entitlement, it's just doing the right thing. Personally, if Buffy views all of her friends, charges and lovers as purely expendable and just the cost of doing business, simply because they choose to help her, then she's a pretty big bitca in my opinion.

    And, it's worth pointing out, Buffy was pretty broken up during "Chosen", and hardly just brushed Spike off. She says she loves him because he's about to die and she knows it's what he wants more than anything to hear. That's a pretty big metaphorical pat on the back. I just fail to see why that warmth wouldn't even remotely carry over to the next time she saw him. I don't think it's really possible to just exclude "Chosen" from the very first time she sees him after he literally disintegrates.
     
  6. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2006
    Messages:
    13,671
    Likes Received:
    2,104
    Location:
    rome, georgia
    Reputation:
    25,221
    Kean agrees: I just read a great quote from Ronan O'Gara, "Does the postman get thanked for delivering letter?" I found it apt to this discussion.

    If the postman delivers the mail to me, he does. And the same thing goes for the waiter who delivers my food, the teller at the bank who takes my deposits and cashes my checks, person who sells me my movie tickets, and anyone else who does me a service, whether they are getting paid to do so or not. That is what I was raised to believe courteous people do. It doesn't cost me a cent, and, hopefully, it makes the other person's day a little bit brighter.

    What was it that Wilkins/First Evil said? "It's the end of the world, not the end of courtesy."

    Maybe that's why Spike not getting any sort of recognition for what he did in the hellmouth is such an issue with me. I WOULD have thanked him, and Buffy, and Xander, and all of the others for their acts of heroism.

    Yes, even Angel.
     
  7. Black Eye Guy

    Black Eye Guy Taking over the World!

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Messages:
    8,904
    Likes Received:
    61
    Location:
    Ireland
    Reputation:
    23,095
    Black Thorn
    So why aren't there threads being made on why wasn't Xander/Buffy/Angel thanked, it's all well and good to say in the discussion I would have thanked them, but the fact is no one has asked where's their thanks, becasue no one cared until it was a way to get more praise for Spike.

    I would also assume the majority of postmen dont get thanked, becasue people aren't home when letters are delivered, or he drops them in the post box and goes, its not a job you look for thanks, if you happen to be there when he delivers you thank him. Being a champion is the same thing, nice if it happens, but your not looking for a thanks.
     
  8. Robb Stark

    Robb Stark King in the North

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    2,588
    Likes Received:
    74
    Location:
    Tempe
    Reputation:
    11,719
    Sineya
    I think you're misinterpreting. I haven't heard anyone say anything along the lines of Buffy should kneeling at Spike's feet and showering him with gratitude. That's not it. It's a question about why she's so hostile towards him, and little more. We don't ask threads about the other characters because Buffy isn't so weirdly angry towards them.
     
  9. Gum Gnome33

    Gum Gnome33 "Well, yeah..."

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2011
    Messages:
    1,148
    Likes Received:
    11
    Gender:
    Female
    Reputation:
    5,032
    Sineya
    I agree that there was not enough thankage, (look! a Buffyism!) throughout the series. Everyone was eager to blame and criticize but there was not always enough support and outward gratitude going around.

    But those of us who are confused about the lack of gratitude from Buffy with regard to Spike's sacrifice don't merely feel that way because he's Spike; it's because of the nature of his deed. I mean the guy literally died to save the world. Just as Buffy had. And yes, perhaps we all should be demanding that Xander get thanked more often for sticking around but at the end of the day, the notion that Spike sacrificed his own life and there was not a peep about it is markedly more unsettling. That's all.

    I actually don't think Spike himself expected to be thanked. That's why he didn't run to tell Buffy that he was alive; he wasn't searching for her gratitude and her relief. That of course is one of the primary differences between the Spike of season 6 and souled Spike. By the way, when he sacrificed what he thought was his only shot at recorporialization to save Fred's life, he did not expect a thank you from her, either. Though Fred of course was very outwardly thankful--of course, she tends to be more demonstrative than Buffy to begin with.

    I do think that Buffy's anger was supposed to be driven by Spike's lack of communication with her. But it certainly feels forced, doesn't it?
     
  10. Kaleidoscope

    Kaleidoscope Townie

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2010
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    20
    Reputation:
    79
    I agree that Buffy's anger was supposed to be driven by Spike's lack of comminication with her. There is a setup there, that might have been followed up on if Joss had written #37-39, instead of having to ask Scott Allie to write for him due to lack of time. Scott found himself in the impossible position of having to cram alot into very few issues. I think they ran out of time on that one.

    I do think that Spike's only role in Season 8 was to be put in place for Season 9, essentially. They didn't use Angel as much as such a pivotal role demanded as the one who would make Buffy betray herself and the only one who could, for example. This has been to the detriment of poor Angel, because there wasn't enough thought put into the whole process of his becoming Twilight. The guy at the end of AtF is a long way from the guy who listens to a talking dog in #36. Spike and Angel were both mishandled in season 8. They should have been left with IDW, imho.
     
  11. Kean

    Kean Professional Bangel

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2007
    Messages:
    11,943
    Likes Received:
    74
    Location:
    Ireland
    Reputation:
    30,234
    Sineya
    That's still way more literal than how that quote was intended. I think we are crossing wires at why Spike did what he did. You say he did it for Buffy therefore Buffy owes him a thank you (which I really think the "I love you" was, but we'll agree to disagree on that). I on the other hand, believe that Spike did it for himself. Because he finally felt his soul and believed he had the power within him to do some good. It wasn't about Buffy, it was about him. Buffy doesn't owe him a thank you for doing what he personally needed to do. He could have left and survived, enough damage had been done to The First and its army. Spike chose to stay not because of Buffy but because he could finally do something truly, powerfully meaningful and know he was doing because of his soul, and the humanity it had lent to him.

    Buffy was brash and weird with Spike when she saw him again, but I don't believe she flubbed over a "thank you", more of a "welcome back" or " I'm happy you're alive."

    And just to throw this out there, the world was kind of ending when he arrived, yes it was her doing, but still you can forgive the girl for being a bit frazzled. If memory serves she was perfectly nice to Spike for the rest of S8.
     
  12. Gum Gnome33

    Gum Gnome33 "Well, yeah..."

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2011
    Messages:
    1,148
    Likes Received:
    11
    Gender:
    Female
    Reputation:
    5,032
    Sineya
    I agree that a lot of it had to do with his own path and what he needed to do--in fact, the only way he could act since feeling the weight of his soul. I do think his motivation was also tied in with his need to do right by Buffy and to protect her; I mean I think that's why he joined the fight to begin with.

    I also agree that the "I love you" was a thank you, (though I also think it was a declaration of love but I know we disagree there!)--but I'd have liked for her to say it again after seeing him alive for the first time after sacrificing himself as well. And I agree with you also that an "I'm happy you're alive" would have been super decent of her.

    I think the incongruity of it all is so frustrating; he goes out in this uber heroic manner and Buffy is obviously eternally grateful, telling the others with pride and an immense sadness that Spike is the one who "did all this," her voice cracking a little, (it's in fact the last time she speaks in the series). And then Spike comes back and decides not to flaunt himself in front of her--decides not to expect any outward gratitude from her. And when they do meet again it's just an icy reception from Buffy with hardly any implied relief.

    It just sort of makes you question which version of the series is representative of their characters. We do that all the time on a smaller scale between seasons when they do uncharacteristic things but this is an example of the TV/comics transfer wherein the difference in tone is so vast that it's just...bizarre?
     
  13. Kean

    Kean Professional Bangel

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2007
    Messages:
    11,943
    Likes Received:
    74
    Location:
    Ireland
    Reputation:
    30,234
    Sineya
    I think about this a lot. In one sense I feel there is a really strong argument to be made for how frail the comic's claim to canon actually is. By every definition of the word the comics are canon. But the further the comics go on and the more inconsistencies and the number of down right cluster fraks that occur the less it feels like canon. I've come to think of the comics as a "phony canon" of sorts. I accept their existence but I am totally side-eyeing them.

    The problem is I could personally say the same thing for the last two seasons of the show. So where is the line? What is the true marker for the feel of canon? The only thing that I have been able to use to link the two is Joss's involvement with the writing. The less he is involved, especially in terms of actual writing, the less true and "real" the stories feel. I think it has to be a personal thing too. I feel like I lost my Buffy when she jumped from that tower in The Gift, and I have never felt like she or the tone or spirit of her story has ever been found since. But I know there are people that love S6 and so don't have that question of "true" canon about it all.
     
    Ethan Reigns: I consider the TV series to be canon and the comics to be a brazen attempt to cash in on a story that ended.
  14. Buffyverse Fan

    Buffyverse Fan * The 28th *

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2009
    Messages:
    1,710
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    United States
    Reputation:
    715
    Sineya
    Personally, I don't see Joss doing the comics for money. It's not that I think he's some saint, it's that a guy churning out billion-dollar movies could easily spend his time on more lucrative efforts than writing genre comic books
     
  15. Robb Stark

    Robb Stark King in the North

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    2,588
    Likes Received:
    74
    Location:
    Tempe
    Reputation:
    11,719
    Sineya
    Ah, but there's the rub. When the comics started, Joss wasn't churning out billion-dollar movies (and to be fair, as much as we all love Joss, the guy has produced/directed exactly one financially huge movie, which, to also be fair, would have rocked it no matter who was handed the directorial reigns). In fact, he wasn't doing much of anything at the time. After Serenity in 2005 (which not even the most ardent fans can call a commercial blockbuster with a straight face), he wasn't even involved with another movie project until Captain America in 2011. And after Firefly ended in 2002, the only thing he did in television over the next seven years until Dollhouse was direct a single episode of The Office and the failed BTVS animated pilot. So when he started writing the comics his plate wasn't exactly full.

    And his star has risen in Hollywood since then, his role in the comics has diminished greatly.
     
  16. janas

    janas Bangel in the soul

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2010
    Messages:
    935
    Likes Received:
    371
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Italy - Sardinia -
    Reputation:
    4,068
    I think Joss should conclude the story or at least should not go beyond the season ten. Joss must say goodbye to Buffy and give a dignified end to all these wonderful characters.

    I also believe that Joss has more nothing to say about them, at least nothing significant. All that Joss had to say, said it in the first three seasons. The seasons following are just a repetition of what we already knew ..more Joss continues to write about Buffy, the more he keeps repeating the same things! Joss, please, forget Buffy and go on with other projects.
     
  17. Zeppelin92

    Zeppelin92 Potential

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2013
    Messages:
    151
    Likes Received:
    0
    Reputation:
    375
    Like I mentioned in another thread, soulless Spike was obsessed with Buffy. Once Spike had his soul he wasn't obsessed with her anymore. He still had feelings for Buffy, but he no longer HAD to follow her around like a lost dog. The only times we really see obsessed Spike again was when he felt challenged by Angel or The Immortal.

    Once Spike got his soul he could separate himself from Buffy and get some perspective on his life outside of her. I'm hoping to see Spike play a bigger role on his own now and start to have some Non-Buffy-Centric character development.
     
    Robb Stark: Excellent point
  18. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2006
    Messages:
    13,671
    Likes Received:
    2,104
    Location:
    rome, georgia
    Reputation:
    25,221
    My answer was to the question ("Does the postman get thanked for delivering letter?") and an attempt to explain why I feel the way that I do that Spike should have been thanked for his contribution in the battle, as well as the suggestion that I was being exclusive in suggesting that he be thanked while none of the other characters ever had. I still believe that he deserves some expression of gratitude, which in no way means that I think that the others don't deserve the same thing. Spike just happened to be the one deserving it in that situation.

    As I said in the beginning, I didn't expect Buffy to tackle him, drag him off into the nearest semi-private area and have her wicked way with him. After all, a guy shouldn't have to put up with Angel breath twice in the same century. But I did then, and still do, feel that some sort of acknowledgement of his actions, pleasure at his return, and, yes, gratitude for his actions both in Season 7 and for showing up to help in the then current situation, would have been appropriate. And that is without regard for who he did what for, or even why.

    ---------- Post added at 01:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:14 PM ----------

    My answer was to the question ("Does the postman get thanked for delivering letter?") and an attempt to explain why I feel the way that I do that Spike should have been thanked for his contribution in the battle, as well as the suggestion that I was being exclusive in suggesting that he be thanked while none of the other characters ever had. I still believe that he deserves some expression of gratitude, which in no way means that I think that the others don't deserve the same thing. Spike just happened to be the one deserving it in that situation.

    As I said in the beginning, I didn't expect Buffy to tackle him, drag him off into the nearest semi-private area and have her wicked way with him. After all, a guy shouldn't have to put up with Angel breath twice in the same century. But I did then, and still do, feel that some sort of acknowledgement of his actions, pleasure at his return, and, yes, gratitude for his actions both in Season 7 and for showing up to help in the then current situation, would have been appropriate. And that is without regard for who he did what for, or even why.
     
  19. Black Eye Guy

    Black Eye Guy Taking over the World!

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Messages:
    8,904
    Likes Received:
    61
    Location:
    Ireland
    Reputation:
    23,095
    Black Thorn
    But a lot of people feel she already said thank you in Chosen. You could argue this back that up, she thanked him down in the hellmouth, he knew it, which is why he hasn't asked for a thank you.
     
  20. Zeppelin92

    Zeppelin92 Potential

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2013
    Messages:
    151
    Likes Received:
    0
    Reputation:
    375
    Yah I agree, it could either be because Spike didn't make really any attempt to seek out Buffy after he had become corporeal. Also look at how the whole Buffy crew looked at Angel Inc (and possibly Spike included) after season 7. The Scoobies were suspicious that they were working with Wolfram and Hart. That alone could be a reason why Buffy distanced herself from Spike and Angel and didn't exactly welcome Spike back with open arms.

    Also after thinking a little on it, maybe it's Buffy's immaturity at this point showing through? She pretty much treated Spike like a lap dog for most of the show and seeing him just show up in a space ship at the precipice of a massive war was too much of a grand gesture for her to handle.

    These are all just opinions but I guess they were trying to recapture that fiery dialogue between the two characters that had dissipated during season 7.