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Was Spike mishandled in S8?

Discussion in 'Season 8' started by Robb Stark, Jun 29, 2013.

  1. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    And at least a few of us still believe that it wouldn't have broken her arm to simply express a little gratitude, if not for what he did in the Hellmouth, then certainly for what he was doing there with his space ship, and it isn't uncustomary for friends to be happy to see each other after being apart for a couple of years.
    But, obviously, this goes in the Astronauts Versus Cavemen file, since you can't convince me that I'm wrong, and I can't believe that you're right.
     
  2. EVIL UU

    EVIL UU Scooby

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    From issue 36:

    You guys, what else do you want? She did thank him.
    [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]
    They're not friends. He's a friend-zoned ex, a former glorified sex toy/punching bag.
     
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  3. Robb Stark

    Robb Stark King in the North

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    Sineya
    Okay, time to amend my argument. After reading [MENTION=11194]EVIL UU[/MENTION]'s post, I went back and reread the scene. Buffy isn't nearly as hostile or rude as I previously recalled. In fact, she's not that bad at all. As was noted above, she thanks him for what he did and apologizes for not calling him. She qualifies by saying, quite appropriately, that she's had an army to lead and a war to fight, and just hasn't had the time. She's in the middle of a crisis when Spike arrives and while direct with him, later in the issue she and him have a very nice moment.

    I still feel like Spike wasn't really utilized correctly over the course of the season, but his interactions with Buffy aren't bad at all.
     
  4. gite63

    gite63 Gone

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    Sineya
    I loved Betta George! I know many people hated him and wanted him dead and gone, but I like him.
     
  5. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Yeah, Spike was mishandled in S8, but then again I think a lot of characters were- Angel for one, and Ethan Rayne, and Giles and possibly even Faith after the excellent 'No Future For You Arc' (which was the high-point of the season).

    Spike shouldn't have swanned in like that at the last minute, he needed a reason for the fact that he knew about Twilight but didn't contact people right away. Otherwise it just makes him look bad.

    I think being held prisoner by Twilight works well (just like Faith and Andrew were...and I think Giles was as well. Can't remember that bit.) and so Spike escapes because he knows the truth! *cue dramatic reveal music*.
    Might've been better than more Giles exposition. :rolleyes:
     
  6. NothingVentured

    NothingVentured Potential

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    Considering how they wrote Buffy, Angel, Giles, how can one argue he was mishandled? He got show up, call everyone stupid and save the day.

    With the exception of the Spike/Harmony nonsense, later retconned as 'lol Harmony was using him', Spike is right out of fanfic from his entrance to now.

    Was Spuffy mishandled? Yes. But so was Bangel and basically everything else.
     
  7. amberjane

    amberjane Potential

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    i do feel like spike was mishandled, but as already mentioned, he wasnt the only one either. since he was my favorite, his handling bothered me the most.

    i feel like on ats5, first he did try to leave to find buffy but poofed back before he was corporeal, but when corporesl, he was nervous. on some level i dont think he wanted to change his last moment with buffy in chosen. it could either get better or worse from there, and clearly me and spike were both disappointed. i always had the assumption she knew he was alive, which is confirmed when she says in s8 that shes sorry for not calling.

    so the reason i think he was mishandled is because their reunion was illogical. how does she go from being "im not ready for you to not be here" from s7 to how she is when she sees him at s8? regardless of being an obvious spuffy shipper, i still prefer logical development. i believe for season 8 he was just there for the fans, but if thats the case i couldve waited until s9, but im only a quarter through that and so far theyre not doing much better.

    i think the reason he didnt fit was because the writers wanted to experiment with buffy, like with satsu. it actually woulda been funny with spike being there for that, but if he was there, considering i remember buffy just wanting to have sex for a lot of s8, i think she woulda went to spike to satisfy her needs rather than a girl. a) not gay and b) it wouldnt be new territory.

    i dont feel a thankyou was in order, i just wanted something different possibly an awkward situation instead of fireworks, but not dismissal.
     
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  8. Silverspike

    Silverspike Scooby

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    Mishandled? God he wasn't in it enough for that! :D But yeah, logic had very little to do with season 8 for most of the characters including Buffy herself imo.

    For me it just didn't feel like a natural continuation of seven. It was too bonkers feeling and jarring to be that.
     
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  9. gite63

    gite63 Gone

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    Sineya
    S8 was an abnormality... that the more I read the more I like - but, in my mind, as an alternative universe.

    Well, he came back from the dead, and he didn't look for Buffy. Whithin the plot of S8, at the time Spike arrived, there was no place for Spufiness (real, anyway, because she did fantasize!), but Buffy's reaction can be explained by her being a little put off that he hadn't even given a call - in S9, she even asks him if he is still in love with her; it seems she though he wasn't anymore.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2015
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  10. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    But how could Spike have called Buffy? The closest that he got as an address from Angel was "somewhere in Europe," and the only other way that he could have tried to get in contact with her would have been to go through Giles. Wanta give odds on his chances of success going that route?

    On the other hand, according to Willow in IDW's last Spike miniseries, Buffy knew that he had returned, and almost certainly knew where he was, and she never tried to get in contact with him. That, to my way of thinking, puts her at fault just as much, if not more, than Spike as to why there didn't get back together.
     
  11. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    Don't forget that time had passed between Season 7 and Season 8. They had been apart for some time already.
     
  12. gite63

    gite63 Gone

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    Sineya
    Well, he was leaving LA by ship, going to Europe to find her; he said once “I'm just resourceful. Already walking the earth”... he would have find her, I think...

    According to Willow, Buffy did want to make sure he was alive, but she was so used to have him by her side, declaring his undying love for her, that I think she wondered why he didn't look for her - hence her being dismissive when they met in S8, and later, wanting to know if he was still in love with her (and almost immediately asking him to stay, using Simone's threat as an excuse – Buffy being Buffy, you know - when the answer was “yes”).
     
  13. gite63

    gite63 Gone

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    Sineya
    I wish I understood the passage of time better... S8 took place at least a year and a half after Chosen, right? So, we have to squeeze Angel S5 and After the Fall in less than 2 years? But when Angel and Spike went to Italy, Buffy already had a double, and was leading the Slayer army.

    Angel
    S5 should have happened at that time between BtVS S7 and S8. BtVS S8 should be S9, and the actual BtVS S8, wasn't produced, because it is missing a whole year and a half...
     
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  14. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Exactly. The simple truth is that Buffy had moved on- that's why she didn't contact Spike, track him down, search him out to declare her love or whatever. In Season 8 she had much bigger things to worry about that some vamp ex-boyfriend.
    Which is kinda ironic considering what happens.
     
  15. EVIL UU

    EVIL UU Scooby

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    I don't know - Buffy has issues connecting to other people, avoids getting hurt and whatnot. I mean, she fantasizes about Xander but is too scared to do anything about it until it's too late. With Satsu there's no risk involved. She knows for a fact that Satsu's in love with her. It's safe.
     
  16. amberjane

    amberjane Potential

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    if buffy moved on, she wouldnt have been dreaming about her, spike, and angel. i wouldnt even throw that in the argument if it wasnt for the fact that joss specifically wanted her to have the claddagh ring on in that scene to show that she felt taken. so i dont accept that as the final logical answer.

    on some level, i think a selfish buffy used in love with her satsu because she was convenient. not on the same level as harmony to spike, but buffy doesnt like casual sex, she prefers meaning at least on some end (cause also its an ego boost being with someone who feels that way about you, like spike made her feel wanted in s6). so, buffy has needs, satsu is in love with her, -> sexually satisfied buffy.
     
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  17. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Sure she would've, a dream is just that- a dream. It's nothing to do with the reality of the life she was living at the time. And as I remember it wasn't even a proper dream- Ethan Rayne and her take a tour of her subconscious and there was a on-panel visual joke with Buffy and two of her exes. it was a shallow fantasy.

    And even that matters less than you might think considering everything else that was going on- Buffy is having actual present day-dreams about Xander, she was dressing up to having secret meetings with her other ex (Riley) in New York- trusting him enough to go and find him and have him infiltrate Twilight's organisation.

    And Buffy might've used Satsu but she was upfront about the fact that she didn't share those same feelings- she didn't love Satsu, she said so, she warned her about her past track record, Buffy still ended up having a nice time with her though, then they had one argument about Buffy benching Satsu for a mission, then Satsu decides to stay on in Japan- then they have another nice time. Best break-up ever.

    As for the original question: Just think about what Spike brings to Season 8. Snark and a space ship. He's basically mass transportation so Buffy and co can get to the Hellmouth. Yet again he's treated like nothing more than a plot device (but then again so is Angel). Once they all get to where they need to be he gets smacked around a bit until the end comes. That's how he's misused- he doesn't matter.
     
  18. gite63

    gite63 Gone

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    Sineya
    Yeah, she moved on, right...

    [​IMG]

    Yeah, it's exactly what I've being saying. Buffy could have left the castle - which she did to rob banks, for instance (and they even got take out food there, so it wasn't in the middle of nowhere) - go to some bar and pick up guys for casual sex, but Buffy would never do that. As soon as she learns that someone is in love with her, it doesn't matter that is a girl, that she herself isn't gay, she immediately jumps at the opportunity of finally having sex.

    If Satsu wasn't in love with her, would Buffy have sex with her? If Spike wasn't in love with her, would Buffy have sex with him (in S6)?

    She has issues of abandonment, finds it hard to connect with people, she herself said that, Xander spoke about that in S10. If the thought that Spike had moved on passed through her mind, I think it would be enough for her not want to look for him. And she did think he wasn't in love with her, that he had moved on.

    Back to the topic:

    Season 8 was about Twilight, an idea Joss had while not in his right mind - as some people say... :D

    Spike didn't fit there, and yet they made room for him. So, he is like a deus ex-machina, arriving with a bug ship (which I love) with of all the answers. Works for me.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2015
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  19. EVIL UU

    EVIL UU Scooby

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    I can't believe how right I was! Sometimes, when I read my old posts I'm like Wow, this is so full of shit! and Yeah, I was totally wrong here and Holy shit, really?! but this one? I nailed it! I so nailed it! People, this was before season 10 and in the light of this season - hell yes he was friend-zoned! He was so, so very friend-zoned! Such a nice guy!
     
  20. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    God it was so much worse than I remembered.

    After re-reading S8 I realized how little Spike was in it. 40 issues and he's in ONE arc, seriously he arrives in the final hours of the years and a half long season to provide everybody with his ship. He's mentioned exactly twice in the entire run- the dream sequence with Buffy and Rayne in the first arc (so Spuffies can cling to some notion that Spike hasn't been utterly forgotten about) and secondly somebody mentions the term 'Spike' and somebody things thy might be talking about a person.
    But that's not all.
    The next issue (36 of 40 I think) shows in flashback what Spike's being doing 'behind the scenes' whilst all this other stuff has been going on. Investigating the 'mysterious' Twilight (who Spike guesses correctly is Angel and just doesn't tell anybody) and other events (such as Harmony and the vampire acceptance thing). Wonderful, so his arrival in the midst of things is entirely calculated.

    Then we get Spike- this is Spike here- giving pages of clumsy exposition about the existance of the 'magic' Seed, how it works and how to save the world. Yeah, remember all those other times Spike gave lots of exposiotion about something nobody else knew anything about? No, because it never happened. Some characters are just unsuited to stuff. Oz doesn't give cheesy inspirational speeches for example.

    So in S7 we had two maguffins. the scythe and the amulet, and in Season 8 we have two massive world-changing revelations that nobody had EVER heard of. the Twilight prophecy and the Seed, and the Twilight prophecy is much better explained to be honest (even though its by far the stupider event).
    Giles only knows one of them because he's a smarty pants Watcher and its this weird ancient rumour that he's heard something about.
    Spike knows about the other because: 'he speaks Fyarl'. That's the only explanation we get about how he knows about the Seed and nobody else does. Yeah right.

    But Spike does other stuff too. More melodramatic stupidity as Buffy says 'your my dark place Spike.' and so he turns, grabs and kisses her. Spectacularly awful, and her dreamy reaction is worse. The world is falling apart because she boinked her ex but boy, Spike kissed her so she should bliss out for a moment (there's pandering and then there's pandering ).
    After that? Not much- ship, exposition, big Spuffy kiss so Joss doesn't get accused of forgetting about the ship entirely...
    Spike gets beaten up a lot so it looks like he's involved in the final battle.

    Oh, and we get Spike giving Buffy another talk in the final issue after the whole things over, warning her about some vague oncoming threat that he'll keep investigating (uh-huh, sure) and then saying how Buffy did a spendid job all told, what with the world ending and her doing her best. It's funny how Spike doesn't even get why being told this seems to upset Buffy so much that she has to dive back into Dawn's apartment on the verge of tears. Buffy screwed up, she knows it, and Giles is dead because of it.

    So yeah, badly mishandled. Not as much as Angel but still. They had better options about how to utilize Spike.
     
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