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Was Xander to blame?

Discussion in 'Season 2' started by redruM, Feb 26, 2016.

  1. redruM

    redruM Potential

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    When Xander sees Buffy before she goes to stop Angelus from opening the portal to hell, he says something like "oh and Buffy... kick his ass," as if he really wanted to tell her that Willow was going to try the spell with the Orb of Thessela again.

    I'm not sure if this has been brought up, but do you think Buffy would have waited for the spell to work if Xander told her what was going on? Was Xander's thirst for vengeance for Ms Calender to blame for Angel being sucked into Hell?
     
  2. The Bronze

    The Bronze Rogue Demon Hunter

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    Black Thorn
    There's every chance that Buffy would have been distracted and unable to fight properly had she known what Willow was attempting. Fighting Angelus at less than full concentration would most likely have got her killed and everyone else sucked into hell as a result.

    People like to blame Xander but he made the right call and should be getting credit for keeping Buffy focused and rescuing Giles.
     
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  3. Athena

    Athena Tweedledum Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    At that point in time, Xander had one chance to focus Buffy's mind on the objective at hand - stop Angelus. Regardless of what Willow was trying, she may have failed to re-ensoul Angel. Buffy would still be in the same boat regardless, so Xander really had one shot to keep Buffy in the game.

    Buffy was already struggling with the notion that she felt responsible for unleashing Angelus. She already held all that guilt. This was the man she loved more than anything. If Xander had said anything other than '"kick his ass", she would have stopped herself from completing the task.

    So, althouth outwardly it looked like Xander was stirring, he actually did the right thing for Buffy.
     
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  4. Monkey Pants

    Monkey Pants Bored Now

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    Black Thorn
    I disagree for the most part. If Xander had told Buffy what Willow was trying, she could have tried to distract him or stall him, or some how injure him or contain him or something, while first going for the judge, to see if Willow could pull it off, and then kill him if she had to. Not saying it would be possible, but Buffy had the right to know. Xander doesn't get to decide what's best for Buffy. It wasn't fair to her, and it certainly wasn't fair to Willow. Because of what Xander made up that she said, Buffy thought Willow said something completely different from what she did for FIVE YEARS, which could have possibly changed how she felt about Willow, at least a little. We, and they, will never know. Also, "kick his ass" isn't a very sensitive thing to say to someone when they're about to kill their true love. He could've at least said, "Willow said to tell you...she's really sorry that you have to do this, but we believe in you" or something.
     
    Rogueslayer: 100% agree. I always saw xanders hatred of Angel as rooted in childish behavior.
    ChaseRules: Xander hated Angel because he wanted to go with Buffy himself. That why he always called him dead boy. If he had to lie he could have said there was no other choice but he let his hate out when he said kiss his ass.
  5. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    If Xander had said anything else, Buffy would have ended up dead and the world would have been sucked into hell.

    He knew she was completely distracted from her duty and didn't kill Angelus when she had the chance at the mall after she destroyed the Judge in "Innocence". She also failed to stop Angelus before he killed Jenny in "Passion". The fate of the world was in the hands of a girl who desperately wanted to believe that somehow, things could be made to turn out OK without having to kill Angel, her first big love. "Kick his ass" was no more insensitive than Buffy saying "Chloe was an idiot" in Season 7 - it was intended to be a jolt to the listener's system that would motivate the correct behaviour.
     
  6. Monkey Pants

    Monkey Pants Bored Now

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    Black Thorn
    I think saying Chloe was an idiot was the wrong thing to say too. And even if kick his ass had been the right thing to say, he should have just said it himself and not brought Willow into it.
     
  7. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    We can't say for sure what Buffy would've done with the information if Xander had given it to her. She may have hesitated in the fight or she may have fought harder knowing what was truly at stake.
    What really matters is that Willow asked him to do something and he didn't do it, for his own reasons.
     
  8. The Bronze

    The Bronze Rogue Demon Hunter

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    Black Thorn
    You're right that Xander shouldn't have attributed that to Willow. The problem was that it was a split second decision. He was going to tell Buffy the truth but at the last minute realised that it was a mistake that would endanger her and everyone else. So he quickly back peddled.

    She didn't have the right to know. The whole world is at stake and Xander has the duty to put that before anything else. Buffy doesn't have rights above and beyond everyone else.

    Yes in this instance he does. Buffy's life and the world is on the line. In that situation you have to take responsibility for your decisions. It's no use saying Willow said this or Buffy should know that. If you think that information endangers everyone then you absolutely must keep it to yourself.
     
  9. sosa lola

    sosa lola Scooby

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    While I agree with that, I disagree that Xander doesn't get to decide what to do on this situation because it's his fight as much as Buffy's. He's in this world as well and if that world ended, he'd be sucked to hell. All the fights, all the decisions, the Scoobies have every right to give a voice and to choose an action. It's their world, too, and not just Buffy's.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 27, 2016 ---
    I don't think Xander made the choice to lie until that second after he said, "Willow said..." He was going to say the truth, but then Buffy interrupted him hopefully and that's when he changed his mind. There was a fire in Buffy's eyes, and that fire died when Xander brought her some hope, and it probably scared him.
     
  10. Wildfly

    Wildfly blue fire

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    Black Thorn
    You don't send someone to battle without all the essential information.
    Not when lives depend on it.
    You also don't deceive your friend, letting her kill her lover and then let her live with it if there was an alternative, regardless of your feelings. If you think Angel should pay with his life for Jenny's and the others, fine.
    Get the courage and do it yourself. Don't send Buffy (or later Faith) to do your dirty work.
     
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  11. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Yeah I think there is no excuse for what Xander did. The crucial thing is that by telling the truth he would have been doing it for his friends and that it has nothing to do with Angel.
     
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  12. TheRealBigBad

    TheRealBigBad Scooby

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    The consequences for either had the potential to be dangerous. Buffy, as mentioned prior, could have not given it her all if she had known there was a chance they might have succeeded in resouling Angel. To be honest, Xander and Angel were never "bros". Angelus was pretty strong and Buffy needed her whole mind in it. The slight thought that he may get his soul back could have completely thrown her off guard.
     
  13. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    She might have lost. She might have kept him from getting the sword out of Acathla. He might have been able to use his blood to close the portal, and returned to the fold.

    Shoulda, coulda, woulda, but Xander was completely wrong.
     
    Mr. Pole: LOL... yeah, I realized it after I said chicken in the henhouse.. but ya know. Connor did call Angel a big girl.
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  14. The Bronze

    The Bronze Rogue Demon Hunter

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    Black Thorn
    This is true. If Angelus had hostages then Xander would have to tell Buffy. If he had assembled an army of vampires then Xander would need to tell Buffy. If he was wearing the ring of Amaragh then Buffy would need to know.

    However dropping the bomb that your boyfriend may or may not come back is not essential information. Can you imagine that conversation?

    "Willow says Angel might come back. I know it's taken you months to prepare to fight Angelus but don't let this distract you. Just go in there and distract Angelus and try not to get killed. Stall, stall, stall!"

    If Xander doesn't withhold that information then he is risking billions of lives just so he can tell the truth. There's nothing noble about gambling with your friends life and risking sending the world to a hell dimension.
     
  15. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    But lets flip it for a sec, Xander didn't just not tell Buffy what Willow wanted him to, he actually said 'Willow says to tell you... kick his ass'.
    That- in Buffy's mind- meant that she had no-one who would sympathise with her once she had killed Angel. Not Angel-hating Xander, not torture-victim Giles. Willow- the one person who had always been most sympathetic to Buffy's dilemma over the whole Angel thing and had selflessly offered to help- had now completely withdrawn all her support. That's what the 'kick him ass' signified to Buffy

    So with nobody to confide in a heartbroken Buffy left Sunnydale- partly as a result of Xander's lie. How many people died over that summer in Sunnydale with no slayer there?
    Actions have consequences, and that was the result of Xander's action.
     
    bespangeled: Oddly enough - when we are not debating against each other, I really agree with you often. :)
  16. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    The problem with saying that if Buffy had known, she wouldn't have done her duty, doesn't hold weight because she did do her duty - Angel was himself when she killed him. It would have been infinitely easier for her to kill Angelus than Angel.

    Xander was wrong because he did what he did for petty reasons - he wasn't trying to save the world. He just didn't care enough about trying to save Angel. If it had been Willow on the chopping block, he NEVER would have told a lie to "keep Buffy on point". Never.
     
  17. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    It was another chicken in the henhouse. Xander didn't like Angel BEFORE they found out he was a vampire, and then after there was nothing but pure hate.
     
    bespangeled: Rooster - I think...:D
  18. sosa lola

    sosa lola Scooby

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    I wouldn't call them petty reasons: Angel hurt Buffy, almost killed Xander, kidnapped Giles, killed Miss Calendar and the list goes on. And on topof that wants to end the world. All valid reasons to want him killed.
     
  19. gite63

    gite63 Gone

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    Sineya
    Angelus did all that, not Angel.
     
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  20. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    And those aren't the reasons he didn't like Angel: he hated Angel because Angel had Buffy.
     
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