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Was Xander to blame?

Discussion in 'Season 2' started by redruM, Feb 26, 2016.

  1. ChaseRules

    ChaseRules When it comes to dating I the Slayer.

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    Sineya
    We all know that Xander never liked Angel. So when he said that I sure he was a bit excited
    over finally saying that & Buffy hearing that thought that Willow had given up on her .
    Plus Xander never said anything on how they be waiting for her or anything. Just get
    him is what he said ..[/QUOTE]

    We all know that Xander never liked Angel so I bet he liked saying that a little too much . That could be what
    Buffy picked up on too .He also could have said that they see her later but that all he said.

    Remember from Buffy's pov Willow is the hospital and had almost died from Angelus' raid. That could've been the final straw from Willow's perspective. Buffy is trusting Xander- who has bravely come to help her- to give her the straigh shoot.
    Maybe Buffy should've double checked Willow's actual opinion but in that aftermath? I can't blame a seventeen year old for letting all the pain and isolation causing her to flee, for the good of everyone. From Buffy's pov she has now brough pain to the lives of all her friends and they wouldn't be able to understand her pain- they would just be glad that Angel had gone..[/QUOTE]


    I agree with you there . Thanks to what Xander said Buffy felt like there was no one there to talk to especially since she didn't know Willow was going to do that & she
    wasn't really thinking after killing Angel..[/QUOTE]

    By the end of the episode- from Buffy's perspective- she had no-one to turn to. Her Mom kicked her out, the school expelled her,Giles had been tortured almost to death by the guy she just felt really bad about killing.
    Her friends drawing the last of their support was the final straw, so she left.
    It also explains Buffy's reluctance to tell people the truth when she came back. Remember that it was only with great reluctance that Buffy even told Giles and Willow that the spell worked on Angel and that she had to kill that guy.
    Why else would she not confide in Willow, unless she thought that her formerly compassionate best friend wouldn't understand anymore.[/QUOTE]

    I don't think Xander ever told Buffy that he lied to her. You think he would have at least said something .
    Did I miss It ?
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2016
  2. Priceless

    Priceless She doesn't just fight evil, she redeems it

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    It all comes out in Selfless, S7 when Buffy is arguing with Xander about Anya and Willow tells Buffy she never said it
     
  3. ChaseRules

    ChaseRules When it comes to dating I the Slayer.

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    Sineya
    So 5 years later ? Xander loves to keep his secrets doesn't he .:rolleyes:
     
  4. Priceless

    Priceless She doesn't just fight evil, she redeems it

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    Buffy didn't seem to mind either, she didn't say anything about Xander lying. But five years is a long time, and they had a more pressing issue - should we kill Anya or not? :)
     
  5. ChaseRules

    ChaseRules When it comes to dating I the Slayer.

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    Sineya
    I looked up the transcript & Xander didn't let Willow finish so we don't really know if Buffy knows about Xander lying to her .
     
  6. Priceless

    Priceless She doesn't just fight evil, she redeems it

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    I read it as that was the writers tying up lose ends, and letting Buffy know Xander lied to her. I guess it's open to intrepretation but I'm pretty sure I remember Buffy hearing Willow say she'd never said it
     
    ChaseRules: It is open to interpretation . But the part that shows that Xander is selfish is saying Anya different . I don't see any different myself .
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  7. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    That is an interesting read on it, but I still don't buy that Buffy wouldn't think that she could turn to Willow. At this point they have become really close, not least because of what they have gone through. I still maintain that it was the overall grief and emotion of having kill Angel, the effect it had on everyone else, and the bust up with Joyce which led to Buffy leaving.
     
  8. ChaseRules

    ChaseRules When it comes to dating I the Slayer.

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    Sineya
    Well Angelus had put Willow in the hospital & after Willow last message I guessing Buffy thought nobody was on her side .
    Lets not forgot she was amost on the breaking point before that message too.
     
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  9. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    But then shouldn't the fact that Angel is then out of the picture encourege Buffy more than she can talk to Willow, or that there isn't going to be a problem between them?
     
  10. ChaseRules

    ChaseRules When it comes to dating I the Slayer.

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    Sineya
    Buffy was probuley guilty too about getting Willow sent to the hospital too so thinking that Willow didn't like her could have caused her to just leave.
     
  11. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

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    Sineya
    Buffy thought that Willow wouldn't be able to empathise with her- because she had finally come down of the 'kick his ass' side of the equation.

    It had been building for most of the last half of the season- from 'Innocence' through 'Passions' to the argument in 'Becoming'- Xander and Cordy saying that Angel should die, Giles is clearly conflicted but Willow is the one who- rather selflessly- who is on Buffy's side and wants to try the spell and help cure/curse Angel again.
    But Willow got hurt more than almost anyone in the attempt and her last words- according to Xander- are 'just kill the guy already'. And so afterwards Buffy has no-one to turn to in her desperation.
    I'm not saying that it was the sole cause of Buffy leaving Sunnydale, but just like everything else it was a contributing factor.
    And I site the proof of it in the fact that even when Bufyf returns it takes Giles pulling a minor deception to pull the truth out of her so she can finally move on.
     
  12. BuffyBot22

    BuffyBot22 Potential

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    Was Xander the sole reason Angel got sucked into hell? Well of course not. There were a lot of contributing factors that led to that. But, Xander not telling Buffy the truth about what Willow was doing was 100% wrong. If Buffy had known, she could have stalled Angel. Possibly put more focus/energy on him not getting the sword over killing the other vampires. She had Spike to do that for her anyways.

    I don't believe Xander went there with malicious intent to make Buffy feel isolated, but it is what he did. He made it seem like the last person who actually supported Buffy when it came to Angel no longer supported her. Even with no actual malicious intent, I think subconsciously it was more than just wanting to save the world, it was about getting rid of a guy he didn't like because of jealousy. And don't even get me started on how he brought Willow into it. He should have just kept his mouth shut if he wasn't going to tell Buffy what was really going on. It was just so wrong, and was my final straw on any character redemption for Xander, at least in my eyes.
     
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  13. ChaseRules

    ChaseRules When it comes to dating I the Slayer.

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    Sineya
    Same here . There was other reasons why that happened . But Xander had never liked Angel because he had wanted to date her himself.
    And after seeing what was happening he didn't care about how Buffy felt so he lied to Buffy just to get rid of Angel . If it had been Willow
    it would have been totally different . And lets not forgot that in the middle of the season Xander had blackmailed Amy into casting a spell just to get back at Cordelia so Xander lying to Buffy was the final straw in my mind .
     
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  14. Icarium

    Icarium Scooby

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    You really think Buffy is stupid enough to believe Willow would say "Kick his ass" and then cast the spell anyway? Why would Willow need to tell Xander any message for Buffy, it's not like Buffy expected Willow to rise from her hospital bed to cast the spell. Once Buffy saw the result of the spell it would have been perfectly obvious who lied and why.

    And yes, I know that the glorified fanfiction known as Selfless has Buffy being quite that clueless five years later but at that point all characters had suffered a lobotomy anyway, so I feel free to ignore that. :)

    Only if she could teleport. Not to mention that as far Xander knew, it was Drusilla, Angel, Spike and the hench-vamps against Buffy. The idea that she could have stalled all of them is simply preposterous.
     
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  15. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Spike started beating Angelus with the crowbar while Buffy battled the hench vamps, however, Spike got tackled by Dru and got caught up fighting her. There was a gap of time between Spike getting tackled and Angelus getting up but Buffy was still fighting that one hench vamp. If she'd staked him a bit quicker, she could've stopped Angelus since he literally pulled out the sword just after she staked the hench vamp. Normally Buffy is able to kill the hench vamps much quicker.
     
  16. ChaseRules

    ChaseRules When it comes to dating I the Slayer.

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    Sineya
    So you saying Buffy wasn't fast enough ? I think she was pretty good & if it wasn't for Spike she would have been overwhelmed I believe.
     
  17. BuffyBot22

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    Her not being able to kill that vamp more quickly was clearly a plot device. A lot was going on when Buffy and Spike started attacking. I'm just pointing out that I feel like if Buffy had all of the information, she would have been way more concerned about preventing Angel from pulling out the sword. Buffy went in there with every intention of killing Angelus whether he opened the gates to hell or not so him getting to the sword wasn't a huge thing on her mind, but it would have been had Xander told the truth. I know Dru attacked Spike, but he was still helping Buffy.
     
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  18. BuffyBot22

    BuffyBot22 Potential

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    But, Buffy still could have possibly stalled Angel. Regardless of who all Xander thought Buffy was going up against, he should have told her the truth and he most definitely shouldn't have lied about what Willow said.


    But, regarding what you said about what Buffy thought Willow said- you bring up an interesting point that for some reason the show never addressed and the majority of the audience has over looked- the fact that Willow did CAST the spell and Buffy first hand witnesses that it worked. Yeah, Buffy probably should have figured that out a lot sooner that Xander lied, then maybe we as the audience could have gotten some closure on this and understood his motives better.
     
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  19. ChaseRules

    ChaseRules When it comes to dating I the Slayer.

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    Sineya
    But you missing the main part here . Xander had gave her faulty info so she went in there wrong. If she had know the truth I think she would have gone for the sword first & then Angel would have come back . But thanks to what Buffy was told she didn't & looked what happened.
     
  20. BuffyBot22

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    I'm not missing the main point. I'm agreeing with you lol. I know if she had all of the information she would have channeled her energy toward stopping Angel. We're on the same side here lol. I think what Xander was wrong and hindered her more than helped her!