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Was Xander to blame?

Discussion in 'Season 2' started by redruM, Feb 26, 2016.

  1. ChaseRules

    ChaseRules When it comes to dating I the Slayer.

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    Sineya
    You right :D We all know how much Xander disliked Angel . And it wasn't because he was a vampire but because he had Buffy . Xander did the wrong thing once again while knowing it was the wrong thing.
     
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  2. sosa lola

    sosa lola Scooby

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    Are you saying Xander wanted Angel dead because Angel got Buffy? Not because as Angelus he had killed Jenny, attempted to murder Xander in BB&B and had terrorized Buffy, Willow, Cordelia and Joyce and now had kidnapped Giles?
     
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  3. ChaseRules

    ChaseRules When it comes to dating I the Slayer.

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    Sineya
    Xander didn't want Angel dead because of that . He disliked him because of that . He wanted him dead because of those reasons.
     
  4. sosa lola

    sosa lola Scooby

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    Yeah, because way back before Angel lost his soul, Kendra suggested killing Angel and Xander disagreed, claiming that Angel was their friend. So, Angel getting Buffy isn't an enough reason for him to want the guy dead.
     
  5. ChaseRules

    ChaseRules When it comes to dating I the Slayer.

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    Sineya
    Not dead but out of their lives thought .
     
  6. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Spike definitely helped. I'd even say if Buffy didn't have Spike as an ally, she probably would have lost. There is no way she would've been able to take on Angelus, Dru and Spike all by herself.

    I think Buffy would've held back if she thought there was a chance of Angel being restored which in turn could've ended up getting her killed.
     
  7. ChaseRules

    ChaseRules When it comes to dating I the Slayer.

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    Sineya
    But she thought Willow hated her so that didn't help.
     
  8. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    I don't think that the lie was motivated by wanting Angel dead. I don't think it was about Angel at all. I think it was about Buffy - Xander wanted to keep Buffy alive above all, and he was afraid that if Buffy knew about Willow's spell, then she would try to stall instead of finishing Angel immediately, which might give Angel the chance to kill her. That's why he didn't tell Buffy about Willow's spell - to keep her safe. As safe as he could make her, anyway.
     
    DeadlyDuo: Agreed.
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  9. sosa lola

    sosa lola Scooby

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    I don't know if you read this or not, this is what Joss Whedon said about the lie:

    "The Xander betrayal issue... hasn't come up with us, and here's why. Xander made a decision. Like a general going into battle, he had to keep Buffy's fighting spirit strong and he felt telling her the truth would blunt it. And Angel needed to be stopped. It was a tough decision, and an unpopular one, but I'm not sure it wasn't the right one. I'm on the fence, and that's what makes it FUN! So there." (joss, Oct 20 21:42 1998).

    Source
     
  10. Mylie

    Mylie Potential

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    So basically he thought he knew better than her, didn’t trust her judgment so he made the decision for her. I'll never not have problems with that lie no matter how people justify it. Buffy was the one risking her life and going against her former lover. She deserved to know all the facts because she was the one making the sacrifices.

    Xander might have felt like he was a general going into battle, but he wasn't. And he clearly had no respect for Buffy's judgment and the work she was doing.
     
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  11. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Xander had a good reason not to trust Buffy's judgement - Buffy had the chance to kill Angel in 'Innocence', and she chose not to. And that allowed Angel to kill Jenny, and many others. As Willow later says:

    "Buffy, when it comes to Angel - you can't see straight."

    It's not nice to say, but it was proven to be true in season 2. Buffy should have killed Angel in 'Innocence', and she didn't. Buffy's hesitation is perfectly understandable, and I totally sympathize with her (She's my favorite character! Hell, she's my hero), but she still chose wrong. And Xander was right to question her judgement after that.
    Did Xander make the right choice by lying to her? ...I'm not entirely sure. But I am sure that he doesn't deserve to be condemned for it.
     
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  12. Icarium

    Icarium Scooby

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    You are making it sound as if Xander wasn't risking his life too. Why should Buffy be the one to decide Angel's fate anyway? She is totally biased - it's completely understandable, of course, and that's why in real life no judge is allowed to judge friends or relatives. Conflict of interest and all that. One can argue that Buffy is the one making decisions for other people, decisions that led to many innocent people being gruesomely murdered. Not being able to kill Angel is totally understandable but she, or rather Giles, should have called for Kendra way back in Innocence. They didn't do it because that would have eliminated all the drama related to Buffy's dilemma but this meta reason isn't really an excuse. Xander gets so much criticism for a decision that in the end changed absolutely nothing while Buffy and Giles don't get any flak for all those dead people.

    Let's get back to the infamous "Lie" and try to look from Xander's perspective:
    1. We, the viewers, know perfectly well that Acathla wasn't going to send the world in hell because that would have meant the end of the show. Xander does not have that luxury. From his point of view Buffy has been failing for months now to deal with Angel, Angel has superior numbers on his side, Angel has Giles as a hostage and Xander didn't even know that the Acathla ritual could be stopped once it has been started. Considering all that, I would argue it would have been extremely irresponsible of him to give a shit about improving the very small odds of Angel being saved even he had liked Angel.
    2. Speaking of these odds, let's review to see if "Kick his ass" really changed them. What were the options:
    - spell doesn't work, Xander's lie becomes a moot point. By far the likeliest scenario, IMO, considering Willow had never cast a spell of such magnitude, had just recovered from a coma and Jenny might have recovered the spell wrongly. Expecting Willow to pull it off is like expecting a rookie player to score a hat-trick or home run in his first game with the pros.
    - the spell works before Buffy gets to Angel. Xander's lie changes nothing since we saw that Buffy realised what had happened once Angel regained his soul.
    - the spell works during the fight but before Angel pulls the sword. First, that would have been rather unlikely even if we assume Willow would be capable to cast the spell at all. Second, remember that Xander didn't know about Spike switching sides. He didn't know about Spike's recovery either, so I was wrong about three experienced vampire plus henchvamps against Buffy but still, Angel and Dru plus henchvamps against Buffy is a daunting prospect too, the more it goes on the bigger chance the vamps would have of winning. As it happened, even after Spike had attacked Angel from behind (and moronically deciding to keep pummeling him instead of finishing him off, if I might add), Buffy still failed to stop him from pulling out the sword. Sure, she didn't know about the spell but she didn't know how long it would for Acathla to swallow the world either. For all she knew it could have been a lot faster, so stopping Angel from pulling the sword should have been a priority too.
    Let's also not forget that Dru had just killed a Slayer - and only had the chance to do it because Buffy had tried to stall Angel. Why should Xander think that stalling would work any better now, without Kendra?
    - the spell works after the sword had been pulled - well, we saw what happened, Xander saying the truth wouldn't have changed anything.

    td; dr Xander lowering the already small odds of saving the world in order to increase the even smaller odds of saving Angel in the process would have been incredibly stupid of him. Let's not kid ourselves, if we were living in the Buffyverse and knew what was at stake, we would all be telling him to lie to Buffy to increase the chance of saving our lives.
     
  13. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    [​IMG]
    (Gif from: lostboy-lj.livejournal.com/33855.html)
     
  14. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Spike was obviously working out some anger issues on Angelus, but ironically Spike continuing to pummel him actually increased the odds of saving Angel and the world by keeping Angelus down. If Dru hadn't tackled Spike, Angelus wouldn't have been able to get the sword, Buffy would've killed the hench vamp then been able to take on Angelus which would've kept him away from the sword whilst Spike dealt with Dru. Because Dru tackled Spike and fought whilst Buffy was still tied up with the hench vamp, it gave Angelus the chance to get back up and pull the sword.

    In many ways, Dru was the deciding factor in that fight. She was the reason Spike aligned with Buffy which improved Buffy's odds of winning significantly. She was the reason that Spike got taken out the equation by fighting her thus giving Angelus the chance to pull the sword. Without Dru, Buffy could've either won or lost. Buffy needed Spike's help but she also needed Dru not to be there.
     
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  15. BuffyBot22

    BuffyBot22 Potential

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    I think you have done a great analysis of showing Xander's side and possible inner thoughts.

    But, all this becomes a moo point since he literally does the exact opposite in s7 when it comes to Anya and in s6 when it comes to Willow. This is why I firmly believe that him not telling Buffy had a lot more to do with his jealousy issues and dislike of Angel (not Angelus) than it did with helping Buffy. 99% of Xander's motives are always selfish. Buffy never gets to think about herself- her wants & needs. And because she stopped to think about them for a second in Innocence, now she's the bad guy? I don't buy it. Just for a moment she wasn't strong enough to kill the love of her life because she had hope. Well that hope died when he killed Ms. Calendar and her innocence died the minute she sent him to hell.
     
  16. sosa lola

    sosa lola Scooby

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    I disagree because all the characters are risking their life to save the world. All the characters have the right to act and decide what to do. It's not just Buffy and it was never just Buffy.

    If Buffy fails, the world will be sucked into hell and all the characters will die. Xander making a decision is his right just as much as Willow deciding to restore Angel's soul with her medically bad condition is.

    That said, I personally disagree with Xander's decision but I never saw hate and disrespect behind it.
     
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  17. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Why would that make it moot? It just means that Xander was in an impartial position in season 2 (since he had no emotional attachment to Angel), and WASN'T in an impartial position in seasons 6 & 7 (since he DID have emotional attachments to Willow and Anya). It doesn't make his reasons in 'Becoming' any less valid.

    Where's the logical connection there? Xander chose a different decision in later years, so it means that his decision in 'Becoming' had to be about jealousy and/or wanting Angel dead? Those two things have nothing to do with each other.

    That's completely wrong. Come on. Xander fights vampires and monsters on a daily basis throughout the entire story, despite not having any superpowers. You don't do something like that if you're "99% selfish".

    It doesn't make her the "bad guy", it just means that her judgement is not very good when it comes to Angel. Which is why Xander questioned her judgement in 'Becoming'.

    And yeah, it's not fair that she always has to make the hard choices and think about others, but that's simply the cards she was dealt - "with great power comes great responsibility", and Buffy has great power.
     
  18. Icarium

    Icarium Scooby

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    First of all, if we are to judge the characters on the basis of what they did in S6-7, we would conclude they were all horrible people all around. :) Second of all, you are comparing apples to oranges. It's not like Xander had the ability to kill Willow or have Willow killed in S6 and decided not to do it. Killing Willow was the option of last resort and even in that the decision wouldn't be up to Xander. In season 2 killing Angel was the default option, trying the spell was the long shot. Similarly, in Bad Becoming II Rip-Off, I mean, Selfless, there were other ways of dealing with Anya, which both Xander and Buffy forgot for reasons of plot induced stupidity. Also, there was no apocalypse involved, so as much I personally might think Anya is a disgusting serial killer who deserves death, I can't really for Xander for thinking there other ways of stopping her - because there were.

    Last but not least, it's perfectly normal to take extra risks to save people you love than those you don't, so even if the situations had been the same I don't see why Xander having different opinions when it comes to saving different people would be hypocritical in any way. Is Buffy as enthusiastic about saving say Faith as she is about saving Angel or Willow? Of course not.

    As for the jealousy, at the time Xander was dating Cordelia and had even started to show some signs of noticing Willow as a woman. The idea that he was also so in love with Buffy to plan what's basically a sort of assassination by omission is really not convincing to me. He had a close friend killed by a vampire, he had some very close run-ins with Angel and Drusilla, Willow had just been put in a hospital by Angel's allies, etc. But no, if he doesn't care enough to risk the fate of the entire world on the very slim chance that Angel might be saved, he is clearly motivated by jealousy. I guess he is also dumb enough to think that if this plan worked Buffy would not hate him forever but instead would immediately decide to date him because that would have been so logical, you know.

    Just for a moment? You do realize that months pass between Innocence and Becoming, right? Even if we count Buffy's declaration of resolve at the end of Passion as genuine and assume she didn't kill Angel soon after because he hid well enough, that's still at least several weeks - weeks in which Angel was killing people on a daily basis. As I said, completely understandable, nobody should be the judge, jury and executioner of people whom they love but if somebody has failed to do something for months now, it's understandable if even their closest friends doubt they would be able to do it now.
     
  19. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    1) 'Selfless' is awesome! :mad:

    2) Season 2 had the same nitpick-y flaw - Buffy didn't ACTUALLY have to choose between killing Angel or letting him go, she could have just locked him up until they could find a way to re-ensoul him.
    If you nitpick hard enough, the entire Buffyverse makes no sense.
     
  20. Icarium

    Icarium Scooby

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    Well, yes. She should have even captured him as early in Innocence and let Giles or Xander or someone else to finish him off but that wasn't dramatic enough, I guess. I mean, a kick in the balls is great metaphorically but textually Buffy sure dropped the ball (pun intended) by letting Angel escape. But I think the plot hole in season 7 is much bigger because both Buffy and Xander should have known perfectly how to take away the powers of a vengeance demon and that wishes are reversible. It's hardly nitpicking, especially considering Anyanka 2.0 had been granting wishes for months at that point, so they cant' even claim a lack of time to come up with a plan of action.