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Question What if Buffy tried to R*pe Spike?

Discussion in 'Season 6' started by smgismyqueenjpg, Jun 28, 2017.

  1. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy "I wanna see how it ends"

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    Sineya
    The problem with this thread is not that people believe women raping men isn't possible. It's that even though it can happen, Buffy would never rape Spike or anyone for that matter, and if she did no one would be on this forum because it would go completely against the brilliant heroine everyone fell in love with.
     
    Anyanka Bunny Killer: This is a PERFECT post. :D
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  2. Blaze

    Blaze Let it Burn

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    Black Thorn
    100% agree. But that's my problem with a lot of the arguments being made. People are saying that a woman can't rape a man. They aren't saying Buffy wouldn't rape a man because of her morals. That's an entirely different argument.
     
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  3. Anyanka Bunny Killer

    Anyanka Bunny Killer "I got these evil hand issues..."

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    Black Thorn
    giphy (3).gif
     
    Blaze: I shoulda abandoned thread a long time ago lol
  4. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    But we do have a popular girl on the show who raped Xander once, tried to kill him the second time he landed on her bed and used magic to rape Riley by convincing him she was Buffy. Faith remains one of the more popular characters on the show and leads the polls on "Who from the show would you like to hook up with?" Maybe in reality it would not be as clear-cut that everyone would shy away from a female character who has committed rape. Spike always leads popularity polls and he has definitely admitted to rape in the past and not just the attempted rape of Buffy. Buffy was a slayer. She had part demon essence inside her. If the show had played that part up a bit more with Buffy trying to overcome evil influence from within, it would definitely have had a different aura to it but there is nothing saying it would be less popular.
     
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  5. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul I AM GROOT

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    I never said it's impossible or that it doesn't happen.:confused:

    I'm not contradicting myself. Women raping men can happen and does happen like in the cases I mentioned. Or like you mentioned in actual ongoing relationships. But outside of relationships it's not that easy for a woman to attempt rape on a man which is what my point was with average man/woman crossing paths on the streets.


    In the case of Buffy/Spike I wouldn't buy it because Buffy is supposed to be a white hat, good woman, hero. All instances of attempted rape on this show were committed by evil people. Faith, Spike, Hyena!Xander, douchebag swimmers etc.. The fact that Tim Minear was hardcore about wanting Angel (the good guy hero) to attempt rape shows however that ME was not above putting their lead in that position, even if it's just in theory. And you will find plenty Spike fans who labeled Buffy an attempted rapist during her dealings with Spike in S6.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2017
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  6. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Agreed. The conversation has moved away from "What if Buffy raped Spike" to "Can a man be raped by a woman" to which the answer is yes. Buffy wouldn't rape Spike because it is against her morals and also Spike wouldn't say no to Buffy because of his feelings for her. Therefore if the show had wanted to explore the issue of female on male rape properly, those two would not be the best characters to use.

    The problem is the show has had female on male rape with Faith and Riley, and attempted with Faith and Xander yet just brushed over it. They kind of brushed over the male on female AR with Spike and Buffy so the topic of female on male rape didn't stand a chance.

    The show brushed over Faith's actions, therefore it was never demonstrated the actual consequences of what she did. Buffy was more annoyed that Riley couldn't tell it wasn't her rather than the fact that he would never have consented to having sex with Faith if he knew it was her. Already, the show has put the blame onto Riley on not being able to tell the difference. Perhaps Riley would've been a more interesting character if they'd bothered to show the fall out to Faith's actions and how he feels and deals with that.

    I disagree about Spike raping in the past for several reasons (and I know people are going to disagree with me for disagreeing):

    1. In TGIQ, we saw Angelus offer Spike the bride and Spike turned the offer down in favour of spending time with Dru. If the show wanted to make it clear that Spike raped then having him turn down the opportunity to do so is not the way to do it. If anything, him turning down the opportunity transmits the message that Spike wasn't in to that sort of thing. He definitely had no problems with others doing it as he cheered Angelus on when he thought he was raping the bride rather than having sex with Dru, but Spike never engaged in it himself. The show made it clear that Angelus did rape.

    2. There is no clear line between Spike souled and unsouled, unlike Angel and Angelus. Though Angelus is part of Angel, it's very clear that Angelus is not Angel and vice versa. Therefore the show could get away with Angelus raping to show how evil he is without it impacting negatively on Angel. They wouldn't be able to do that with Spike, especially as he spent the majority of the show unsouled and working alongside team Scooby.

    3. Rape is often the crime used in television to show that a character has crossed the moral event horizon. Once a character has done that, they are irredeemable for the audience. Though the show brought Spike close to the moral event horizon, he didn't cross it, and as the writers wanted the audience to feel sympathy for Spike in season 7, revealing that he'd crossed that line before is not the way to go about it.

    4. The AR was meant to be Spike hitting rock bottom which pushed him to get his soul. If he'd already committed rape in the past, why should that time be any different?

    5. If the crux of the awfulness of the AR is that it was Buffy, then that's a horrible message to send as it implies that Buffy is more important than random victim No 9. Whilst Buffy is the main character and thus the audience does care more for her over a random red shirt, when it comes to rape, you can't go "oh Spike raped hundreds of red shirts but they don't matter, it's the AR of Buffy that really counts and crosses the line".

    6. There are other horrible things Spike could do in the past that don't involve rape, brutal torture being one of them. Also, considering Spike earned his name by torturing his victims with railroad spikes, it would make more sense that he is referring to something he is renowned for rather than something that would put him in a negative light with the audience when the show is trying to get sympathy for him.

    Having the demon essence play a bigger role in within the series could both work and not work. On the one hand, it would have Buffy struggling with her dark impulses and in the episodes where she is slightly darker than normal, it would create the fear that she might be slipping. It could also explain Faith's attitude of "Want, Take, Have". However, on the other hand, it takes agency away from the characters. Any bad thing that Faith did, the excuse "the demon essence did it" would be used. It wouldn't be Faith making bad choices.
     
  7. Stoney

    Stoney Spiked!

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    I really don't have the same 'event horizon' point of view on rape that you talk about. A century of taking pleasure in violence, preying on people to enjoy beating them, torturing and murdering them isn't distinctly better for me if it doesn't include rape too, it is all just heinous. Personally I just take his disinterest in the bride (in Destiny?) to be more about getting back to Dru than being specifically disinterested in rape. I also interpret what Spike says to Buffy in Never Leave Me about what he did to girls Dawn's age to be about sexual assault/rape. Granted I can't remember it being stated outright that Spike raped unsouled, but I think assuming he did is reasonable and I don't think that assuming he did draws any hard line that prevents the character from moving beyond it. The reason Spike can separate from those acts is exactly the same way as happens for Angel, pre established in verse, through becoming souled, being someone who has changed and would never have chosen to commit those acts. Being souled fundamentally and meaningfully changes them. Spike gains morals and the depth/breadth of emotions to care about the people he hurt in the past, as displayed in Never Leave Me, and not only care about having hurt Buffy. He doesn't become flawless and he certainly still gets things wrong once souled, but he becomes someone meaningfully different who isn't limited as he was unsouled. In losing his self focus he becomes capable of choosing heroic sacrifice for a world full of people he doesn't know or personally care for.

    There are important distinctions between Spike souled and unsouled. The extreme difference we see in Angel's behaviour is definitely originally because they wanted a stark distinction for how they used the soul in the early seasons, they wanted to protect souled Angel and hold him distinct. But the background we later learn about Liam gives good coherent reasons why his behaviour swings strongly (beyond the different paths to being souled). Angel's focus on guilt/redemption works with the catholic upbringing and his own stated perspective of not being able to stop looking back on his victims. Spike took William's tendency to prefer to avoid what he doesn't like to think about (as stated in the party about the murders and as later allows The First to be able to hide the trigger in a suppressed memory about his mother), so he doesn't like to look back but prefers to look forward at what choices he can affect and what he can do in the here and now. How he can change things. Both of their reactions to being souled are affected by their individuality, their personalities and their coping mechanisms. But both are shown to struggle with their past actions and although Spike doesn't tend to be open, he always leans towards putting up a front to protect himself emotionally, he does speak to both Buffy and Angel about his soul and struggling to see his path going forward. Neither vampire would, or does, behave like they did unsouled.

    So I don't agree that the attempted rape was supposed to be a rock bottom act for Spike. I think the narrative purpose was to prove that he couldn't be trusted fully, that he couldn't redeem himself unsouled. It showed he was fundamentally limited without his soul and without the moral conscience and full depth of emotion it brings. He didn't have the right inbuilt boundaries to inform and control his actions, his choices. Spike thought he could just choose to be good and draw the line himself, that he could be what Buffy wanted/needed. He thought he could fit his own expectations of himself to never hurt her, as he confidently informed her, and he couldn't. The attempted rape is about Spike failing to be able to walk the line unsouled, and about him seeing that he can't stay in-between as he had been, neither monster nor man.
     
    Living Dead Boy: Great post.
    flow: as always :-)
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2017
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  8. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    @Stoney We'll just have to agree to disagree. :)

    To me, the way Spike was set up and written throughout the series does not lend itself to say to the audience "by the way, he's a serial rapist". If that's the way the writers wanted Spike to be perceived by the audience, then they needed to make that point more overt as they did with Angelus. You can't assume the general audience will read between lines, if you want to make a point than you have to outright state it eg when Faith took over Buffy's body, was Faith just trying to mess with Buffy only to suffer some realisations or was Faith doing it because she genuinely wanted to be Buffy?

    In television or film, if you want to let the audience know that a character is something, then you have to either show the character doing something or have another character mention about the other character's antics eg we know Xander's father is an alcoholic. How do we know this? We have it mentioned that Xander sleeps outside to avoid his parents drunken fights and we are also shown Mr Harris getting drunk at the wedding. It's no good saying that Mr Harris is an alcoholic if none of the other characters mention it, if we don't see him drinking, and more importantly if we see him turn down a drink.

    None of the characters have mentioned Spike is a rapist, we haven't seen Spike rape anyone (Like I said, the AR was supposed to be a rock bottom moment for Spike that made him realise he had to change), and we have seen him turn down an opportunity to rape. How can it be said Spike raped when there is no mention of it, no showing of it, and an active refusal of participation.
     
  9. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    Even if you don't believe Spike's raped anybody, which nobody actually mentioned it in the show so fair enough, that doesn't make Spike in any way less evil than Angelus. They're equally cruel. Spike got his name because he use to stick railroad spikes through his victims heads, that's not just Spike getting his food anymore that's enjoying what you're doing. I just don't understand why it's sometimes painted like Spike is a 'nice' vampire compared to everybody else when he wasn't he just had different ways of being cruel than Angleus did.
     
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  10. Stoney

    Stoney Spiked!

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    Yes, which is why the attempted rape was important not because of the act itself but because Spike was failing to draw a line he thought he could when he told Buffy outright that he wouldn't hurt her. It marks out definitively that he isn't a special vampire who can just choose to be good and walk the line, the audience is supposed to see that he is fundamentally limited without a soul. And this distinction is needed from all of his past crimes for him to move forwards past them, gaining meaningful separation from being the evil murderer who enjoyed taking his violent revenge on the party goers, as well as the attempted rape, as well as all his other unsouled sadistic/violent acts.

    I understand why both he/Angel feel connected to their unsouled pasts, even though they are fundamentally different when souled. They still have the memories, they still have the demon in place within them, there was character continuity throughout and it would be hard to deal with literally having memories of acting that way and enjoying it, however separate you also feel to it now.
     
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  11. Athena

    Athena Belinda Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    I think we need to get off the topic of Spike raping or not raping, as that's not what the actual subject matter is. It's about whether Buffy would rape Spike, which I personally don't think the show could ever get away with, both in the sense of Buffy's stance as the hero of our story and that it would be completely out of character.

    Just on the topic of rape and main characters. Recently in the TV show Poldark, the main character (Ross Poldark) was betrothed to a lady called Elizabeth before he went off to war, they were madly in love but she presumed him dead so she married his cousin. He returned and ended up marrying someone else, but then the cousin died and Ross got closer and closer to Elizabeth. He ends up pushing her onto a bed and raping her. Elizabeth basically says no repeatedly and we're shown Ross forcing her to have sex with him. The show tried to play it down as "it wasn't rape, it was consensual, she just said no but didn't mean no (because after she says no she moans with pleasure etc)" but that was kind of it for me. As soon as that happened, Ross was no longer the loveable rogue and hero of the story. It's different for Poldark, as it's an adaptation of a book, but I really feel like Ross did rape Elizabeth and to me, that's unforgivable for your lead character to even contemplate. I don't care if he was drunk or whatever. Ross is not a hero!

    I've not watched Poldark since that episode. It would be even worse for a show aimed at teenagers to do that to their lead character. She has to be the moral core, she has to lead by example. She can make mistakes but she has to learn a lesson. How can one learn a lesson from raping another person?
     
    Blaze: Agreed! Also the last paragraph made me think of a TED talk I listened to not long ago where a woman and her rapist take the stage together to talk about rape, it was a very interesting talk
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  12. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Nobody is saying Spike was a "nice" vampire and I agree he was cruel in a different way to Angelus. The point is, in television, rape is often used as the moral event horizon and given that the writers wanted to elicit sympathy for Spike from the audience in season 7, it would be counterproductive to go "oh by the way he used to rape".
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 1, 2017 ---
    This is my point exactly. The moment Poldark raped, he'd crossed the line for you. That was his moral event horizon. You wouldn't then feel sympathy for him would you?

    Back on topic, there is no way Buffy would rape anyone because that is not who she is as a person. She tries to help people not harm them.
     
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  13. Stoney

    Stoney Spiked!

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    Yes, if it is going to be a plot/character point for them, then establishing relevant parameters around a topic is done. Whether Spike raped before or not would have been brought up during the season before the attempted rape if the plot point was that such an act was rock bottom for him, but that wasn't the plot point so it wasn't done (neither in confirmation that he had nor that he hadn't).

    The context for the realisation gained from the attempted rape is established during the season. As a continuation on from showing his potential for good in S5, S6 is about the limitation of that potential due to being soulless. It is about Spike himself coming to see that he can't walk the line as he believes he can. That without a soul his selfish/demonic nature can dominate his wishes. Spike states in As You Were that Buffy kept going to him despite knowing what he is, but at that point he thinks he can be what Buffy wants/needs. That belief doesn't change until Seeing Red. In Entropy Spike tells Buffy that he wouldn't have been the one spying on her because he doesn't hurt her...

    SPIKE: You think I could do that?
    BUFFY: Because you don't lie or cheat or steal or manipulate...
    Spike gives her back the camera.
    SPIKE: (quietly) I don't hurt you.
    He walks a few steps away.
    BUFFY: I know.
    SPIKE: No, you don't. I've tried to make it clear to you, but you won't see it. (pauses) Something happened to me. The way I feel ... about you ... it's different. And no matter how hard you try to convince yourself it isn't, it's real.
    BUFFY: I think it is.
    Beat. He looks at her.
    BUFFY: For you.
    She turns to walk away. Spike looks hurt.
    Buffy pauses by the door, turns back.
    BUFFY: I know that's not what you want to hear. I'm sorry. I really am. But, Spike, you have to move on. You have to get over-
    SPIKE: (softly) Get out.​

    This was his assurance that for her, for love, he is capable of drawing a distinct line and he is hurt by her not seeing his assurance, his devotion and emotions as 'real'. Dawn went to speak to him in Seeing Red and told him that he had hurt Buffy by sleeping with Anya. So he went to try and speak to her and then ended up crossing the line and hurting her further directly. The attempted rape is there to show that he can't draw the lines he thought he could and get it right soulless, no matter what his intention and motivation.

    So whether Spike raped once or many times in the past isn't the issue, that is why it isn't raised. The issue is that Spike himself, some of the audience, and to a degree Buffy too, have been looking past his soullessness and believing that he can walk the line without his soul. The attempted rape crosses the line and is a violation of the person he felt capable of promising to never hurt and that failure and realisation is the context that the show lays out for you to see the attack within, and for the character progression to work from.

    Because it is safe to assume that anything awful that a soulless vampire might do they probably have done. And if it was so important to establish that he didn't, that it was a line he specifically didn't cross and something that they didn't want assumed incorrectly about him, then they would have stated that he didn't. They would have made it context for the attempted rape but they didn't. Perhaps Spike didn't rape, but it certainly wasn't an important character or plot point they established definitively either way. Whereas his belief he could be what Buffy needed despite being soulless was firmly established and so his failure to walk the line unsouled (not monster or man) was the context that was then progressed from.

    The scene you are quoting from Destiny to support your reading of S6 on BtVS was a whole season and another show away. Plus, really, the most that I think you can categorically say about that scene was that Spike wasn't interested in taking Angel up on the suggestion at that time. Saying 'nah' in response to the suggestion is pretty casual and he didn't appear repulsed or disapproving when he found what he thought was Angel raping the bride later. Your own feelings of it being this moral event horizon compared to all the murder and torture he committed just wasn't being used in his story. If it was, again, they would have made it contextually clear before he attacked Buffy that this was his previously established truth. They wouldn't have implied rape may have been on his mind when he was threatening Willow in Lovers Walk and linked the attempt to bite Willow with rape through all the impotency gags in The Initiative. They wouldn't have left the possible interpretation that he may have been distressed referring to assaulted girls Dawn's age in Never Leave Me. But these were left as implied and not refuted because whether Spike raped or not in the past just isn't a plot/character point for him. It was his failed ability to walk the line that was the context for the attempted rape. It is his his lack of morals and lack of ability to draw firm boundaries on his actions/choices which they established and that inadequacy which he moved on from by gaining his soul.

    Sure. :)

    I agree with the comments that Buffy wouldn't rape someone. I think the point of discussion was never clearly outlined for the thread and I had just assumed it was a question of morality, would it have been fundamentally different in some way if it had been written the other way around. And that is why my initial response was just that rape is wrong whichever way it happens. If the question is really whether we could theoretically see Buffy trying to force someone to have sex who is saying no and pushing her away, then no I just can't see that happening.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2017
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  14. flow

    flow Male Vampires are stupid. Throw rocks at them

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    There is another possible interpretation for that particular line in the scene between Buffy and Spike. Spike is trying to convince Buffy to stake him. Maybe he thinks that implying he has raped young girls in the past would be the best way to make her kill him without any further hesitation.

    I don`t think @DeadlyDuo was comparing Spike to Angelus or talking about one of them being less evil than the other (which they are not). I think she was directly answering to this:

    Back on Topic: I am sorry to say this but I don`t actually understand what the question is aiming at. I don`t know what would have happened if Buffy had comitted a crime like rape, no matter if the victim would have been Spike or someone else. It did not happen.

    If it had happened, than it would have changed Buffys character in a very extreme way. She would literally have become the next Big Bad. But I don`t see any point in a story twist as extreme as this and - again - it has never happened.

    flow
     
  15. Dora

    Dora Potential

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    Spike raped Buffy in the balcony scene in the Bronze she said Don't..... he said stop me , Buffy never consented she never fought back but lots of men and women don't, Buffy never consented that is rape or are you using the old..... she wanted it
     
  16. Athena

    Athena Belinda Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    See my post above! This thread is not about Spike raping Buffy, so can we leave that topic alone please and concentrate on the actual topic of the thread?!
     
  17. Dora

    Dora Potential

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    Sorry I thought we had and decided It would not happen
     
  18. Athena

    Athena Belinda Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    You're mistaken. Keep the thread on topic.
     
  19. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    That wasn't rape or are you saying all the times she told Spike they weren't going to sleep together again then a couple of scenes later went to find him to do just that were rape as well?

    Back on topic, Buffy wouldn't rape Spike, or anyone, because she is not that kind of person. For Buffy to be able to do that, the writers would have to absolutely destroy her character in order to make that scenario even remotely possible. They'd have to contend with not only the network, but probably SMG as well. Not to mention the fans.
     
  20. Dora

    Dora Potential

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    The balcony scene is rape because Spike doe's not get permission , the fact Buffy does not fight back means nothing, she said No he did it anyway . We are shown Buffy finding Spike three times , Once in Gone when Buffy was acting totally out of Character ,once in As you were when she was on a real low over Riley coming back and once she went to Spikes Crypt where she turned away and Spike ran after her , the rest of the time Spike was the instigator ? .

    Back on Subject
    Buffy a hero she would not rape any one, certainly would not have to rape Spike you can't rape the willing. Imagine if she had, he boasted enough about bedding her when he knew she was only going to him because of her mental illness ,let along forcing him into having sex. He would have probably used it against her to get sex when ever he wanted . Totally agree with Deadly duo Buffy would not rape Spike or anyone, but on the SMG thing it is well know that Sarah did not like the sex scenes between Spike and Buffy, complained, but was made to do them.