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What is so bad about Season 4?

Discussion in 'Season 4' started by Joshua, Jan 7, 2015.

  1. Samuel Reyes

    Samuel Reyes Chilling in SunnyD

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    Angel and Cordy never had sex.

    I agree with what's been said about this season: the highs were really high and the lows were really low. Kind of like Joss's creativity. The highs are really high, but on the rare occasion where he goes low, he goes really low, like 'forbidding' Charisma's pregnancy. WTF, dude?

    The most annoying thing story-wise had to be how they actually suggested that everything in the series was arranged for Jasmine to come to Earth (and end up lasting less than a week).
     
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  2. Fenrir

    Fenrir Townie

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    I don't know if this counts as thread necromancy but I really wanted to respond to this.

    I actually really liked season 4. It's possibly my favourite actually. The darker Wesley (even if his behaviour in the previous season didn't make a great deal of sense) was great. His relationship with Faith when she came in was especially amazing. The Beast I quite liked; his motives were mysterious and he retained his presence even whilst speaking with Angelus. Speaking of Angelus, I felt David's performance was amazing in that series.

    I get why people dislike how Cordelia was portrayed. I don't know if there is truth to the idea that Joss Whedon got angry about her pregnancy but while I didn't appreciate her character others did and I understand their resentment for how her character was used. In general, I disliked Connor. But the rest made up for it. Initially I wasn't a fan of Jasmine but the episodes after she was born came across well. I definitely liked the Fred focussed episode. Her people-eating thing was disappointing but overall I liked it.

    Having said that Season 4 may have been my favourite a lot of that comes from certain episodes I found incredible whereas others were mediocre at best.
     
  3. Anyanka Bunny Killer

    Anyanka Bunny Killer Jotunheim

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    Black Thorn
    I loved Spin the Bottle and I REALLY LOVED how Faith put Connor in his place. That was pretty bad ass. And of course, WILLOW!!!

    That's about it.
     
    Fuffy Baith: lol. Yep! That's about it!
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  4. Dolores

    Dolores Professional sleeper

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    I do like season 4 for lots of reasons but then it's also the season I have the most problems with.

    Like many people have said - the whole 'Jasmine was behind everything and all the decisions you've ever made up til this point' was atrocious and downright lazy. I think this is actually my main issue. Jasmine's been here for 5 minutes and we've been watching Buffy/Angel for 7 years and you're telling me she's manoeuvred everything? No. I'm. Not. Having. It. Bad writers - bad!

    No clear explanation about how Jasmine actually got to Cordy or about what happened in spin the bottle to 'wake her up' or whatever. Just too many unanswered questions. Fair enough in the commentary I know the writers said they had to sort of rush up to the climax but come on!

    And yes - the ambiguity of Jasmine's character and whether or not they really did stop world peace. It just wasn't done well enough.

    Random highlight of the season - among the obvious - Faith and caged Angelus etc - Fred kissing Angel for their disguise and how much he clearly enjoyed it! Everyone wants Fred :D
     
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  5. Fuffy Baith

    Fuffy Baith 2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member

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    Sineya
    I don't even remember this! What episode is that from? lol. Of course everyone wants Fred! She's adorable!
     
    Mr Trick: Was thinking the same I don't remember that?
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  6. Iwearthecheese

    Iwearthecheese Scooby

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    What they did to Cordelia as a character and Joss's sorrynotsorry excuses.

    Also Angel is the worst Dad ever and I can't stand 'dark Wesley' and his self righteous jackassery.

    It has its bright spots- The Angelus arc, the Beast, Gwen Raiden, Faith, Willow. The Jasmine arc finally give Fred something to do. The last episode.
     
  7. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    It was the episode where the world was under Jasmine's thrall and they were on the run. They had to make out in an alley (i believe it was) to avoid being noticed.
     
    Fuffy Baith: Oh ok. Yea I tend to not remember the Jasmine episodes. lol.
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  8. Anyanka Bunny Killer

    Anyanka Bunny Killer Jotunheim

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    Black Thorn
    And the elephant in the room...if Jasmine was created from Connor and Cordy's DNA, then how the hell did she turn out to be a statuesque black woman?? And please don't sweep this under the rug with, "Well, it's magic!" or "Jasmine is beyond race or nationality. She just...is."

    Frankly, even the Cheese Man would've made more biological sense.
     
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  9. vellavu

    vellavu Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Jasmine isn't a black woman. She's a maggot-infested walking corpse, as was revealed by Angel. Gina Torres is just her disguise.
     
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  10. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    She wasn't. The seed was just a vessel in which TPTB for to be born. It was more about blood magic than DNA. That's why Cordy had to be anointed in blood also.
     
  11. Anyanka Bunny Killer

    Anyanka Bunny Killer Jotunheim

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    Black Thorn
    Oh! It's all clear to me now! Thanks, mate. :p
     
  12. Athena

    Athena Tweedledum Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    I'm re-watching Season 4 at the moment, just finished 4.14 Release and after a slow start, the last few episodes have been great. I didn't remember enjoying Season 4 at all, just that I was completely grossed out by the Connor/Cordelia stuff.

    One thing that has bugged me, is that Angelus doesn't feel very Angelus-y compared to Season 2 of Buffy. He seems to be all with the monologuing. Although maybe that's because he doesn't have his posse around to back him up?

    Plus I've re-discovered my love for Lilah, and Weslah in particular. That scene with Wesley talking to the figment of Lilah in his imagination was just brilliant. It's sad that Lilah never got her redemption while she was 'alive'.
     
  13. Sternbeeere

    Sternbeeere Glory´s sane(?) groupie

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    I started watching season 4, (did not watch it in Germany the first time, because of my dislike of Angel as a character) inspired by all the discussions going on, and I have to admit I find the first episodes simply silly. Then I took a glimpse at Jasmine, and she scared me so much. No horror movie in the last 5 years did not achieve that. In terms of mythology/religion she is an interesting figure as well, a lot of allusions to the book of revelations in here. Even the Connor/Cordy thing made sense for me, since it is as disgusting as Jasmine herself is. Therefore I do not get why people do not like her arc and season 4 that much.
    With regards of Jasmine pulling the strings of events in order to come into existence, I assume that she was behind certain events, namely those she spoke about, but I do not think she was behind all events taking place in Buffyverse. For example I do not think she is related to the appearance of the First, or Drusilla turning Spike, or the sanshu. It might even be that she is lying even about the events she spoke about to a certain point. Maybe she simply saw some events and decided to use them.
     
  14. Fenrir

    Fenrir Townie

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    If I recall correctly it's Skip who says that Jasmine was behind a lot of things (Angel moving to Sunnydale then to LA among other things). He also suggests that the important things tend to decided by higher powers and that free will just applies to smaller stuff instead. I'm inclined to think that he was lying\exaggerating though.
     
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  15. Sternbeeere

    Sternbeeere Glory´s sane(?) groupie

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    Yes, I think he is, because the real Powers that be, the not fallen ones tend not to interfere with things at all, as we have seen in early season 4, when Cordelia wonders, how she can help Angel, when she is not allowed to interfere. Jasmine also says, that the Powers that Be retreated from earth and did not interfere with anything, with her being the only one who could not stand and watch. Thus it is unlikely that the powers decide the big stuff. If at all, only Jasmine interferes.
    At that point we have to consider, that Skip is Jasmines friends, who supports her and her agenda. Thus he is very likely to speak in her favour in order to give her a higher status as she actually has. Moreover, there are events after Jasmine, which most likely do not involve intervention from her, which implies, there is and was free will in terms of decisions in Buffyverse. Last but not least, we also should not forget, that there are other dimensions, ruled by other powers, but linked to the earth dimension and their inhabitants interacting with earth, as well as other dieties/diety like beings than the Powers that Be, Old Ones, the First, hellgods/hellgodesses, the Mor family, Tibetanian Godesses etc . All this dieties and beings can influence humans by interaction or magic, the Powers have no control over, which again shows Skip is lying.
     
  16. Sternbeeere

    Sternbeeere Glory´s sane(?) groupie

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    Addition: As far as I see it midseason, the only bad thing for me is Cordelia, whenever she appears on screen, it makes me cringe. Every bad thing comes through her, and even if it is actually Jasmine, evil Cordelia is out of character and comes out of nowhere. there is no feeling of Jasmines presence in her either, which for me makes it even worse. I would wish more Jasmine being Jasmine, her to appear earlier, than evil Cordy.
     
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  17. Fenrir

    Fenrir Townie

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    Cordelia couldn't interfere but did she even actually become a Power that Be (Power that Is?) or was it just a trick? Either way if Jasmine could really change stuff from up high she wouldn't have had to land on earth to try and (essentially) mind control people.
     
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  18. Anyanka Bunny Killer

    Anyanka Bunny Killer Jotunheim

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    Black Thorn
    Joss is brilliant, but apparently quite petty. The season suffered because of it. Poor Charisma.
     
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  19. Sternbeeere

    Sternbeeere Glory´s sane(?) groupie

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    And she would not need Skip to manipulate Cordelia into going to a Power that Is state as well. Additionally we can see that her powers only extent to one dimension and one time. She could not delete references to the Beast in other dimensions or erase Angelus memories of it. While for example the spell of the Dragon Order could give Angelus memories of Dawn and possibly affect other dimensions in that matter.